D&D 5E Should 5e have a "default setting" and cosmology?

[DEFCON 1]

There are two different things at play here, and most people on either side are not talking about what the other is I think.

4E does have a 'complete history' as it were, as the backdrop for their game. Bael Turath, Arkoshia, the Nerathi Empire etc. Those permeate the entire game in the background. All of the gods are directly tied into that history, the battle between the gods and primordials are tied into that history, the eladrin and the denizens of the feywild are tied into that history. It's a setting. The Points of Light setting. The same way 3E used Greyhawk. And to have the entire game itself (mechanics and fluff) tied into that presumed setting does make things 'less universal', and thus more difficult to extricate. And this is proven by the fact that they recreated the Realms and Eberron to add a lot of this PoL history and background into those settings too.

Now the other side of the coin are the people who (I believe) just want a set of basic gods to start with (rather than generic 'God of Light' / 'God of War'), and a starting town or area in the DMG in which to set their game (like the Nentir Vale was for 4E, or Saltmarsh was in 3.5s DMG2) This way players have a very basic 'campaign setting' at their disposal right at the beginning, rather than having to wait and buy some other setting WotC eventually decides to put out.

And there's no reason why you can't have it both ways. So long as you don't tie everything (fluff, mechanics and otherwise) within the game to this base setting you set up for the players in the DMG (and instead you tell them that this is just a sample area in which you could start a campaign), you can have 'example' gods and 'example' cosmology and an 'example' setting that people can use if they want to... but have no problem ignoring if they don't.

 

[TwinBahamut]

So, like, for example, you could include The Forgotten Realms, Sanctuary, and Eberron?

That's the right idea, but not quite the list I would pick. Partly because I don't know what Sanctuary is... Also, Eberron is fundamentally too similar to the Greyhawk/Realms baseline to really stand out as the crazy alternate. Something with genuine sci-fi robots, rather than Warforged golem-men, would be a possible start.

 

[Sunseeker]

That's the right idea, but not quite the list I would pick. Partly because I don't know what Sanctuary is... Also, Eberron is fundamentally too similar to the Greyhawk/Realms baseline to really stand out as the crazy alternate. Something with genuine sci-fi robots, rather than Warforged golem-men, would be a possible start.

To be honest, I think fluffed warforged could suffice just fine. We don't need Voltrons and Gundams in D&D for the most part, especially not as something "base", even if it's strange.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

The Far Realm originated in late 2E, and was in 3E (though not prominently), before it appeared in 4E.

It may have originated back then, but it was never officially part of the Great Wheel. It was something usually regulated to the appendix.

 

[Zaukrie]

You don't see a difference between 3e domains (generic) with some suggested sample gods, and 4e's Channel Divinity feats (specific, with no generic alternative)?

Correct. Because if you want to change the name of Ioun to Zubalier, you can. Still don't see how this is an issue at all.

 

[Zaukrie]

It goes beyond that. Saying that Tieflings come from Bael Turath, and had an empire that spanned the world millenia ago intrudes far more into my campaign setting than the examples you mention.

Then ignore it. I still don't get how that is hard to do, if you want to. I do it all the time. I mean, if you play in DS or the Forgotten Realms, there is no Bael Turath, heck, even WotC wrote that. But if you've never made this stuff up before, that's bleeping hard.

 

[catsclaw227]

So, like, for example, you could include The Forgotten Realms, Sanctuary, and Eberron?

Nice. Buy I'd go Greyhawk (traditional), Humans only Warhammer(? - OK I am reaching here. Sanctuary is a good pick.), Iron Kingdoms.

 

[catsclaw227]

You don't see a difference between 3e domains (generic) with some suggested sample gods, and 4e's Channel Divinity feats (specific, with no generic alternative)?

I refluffed 4e Channel Divinity feats with a simple pen. I created Muir's Justice and Thyr's Justice for a Bard's Gate campaign (3PP Necromancer Games, from the 3.x era) by tweaking an existing ChanDiv power and changing the name. 30 seconds. You can go generic with Channel Divinity easily.

 

[Shemeska]

It may have originated back then, but it was never officially part of the Great Wheel. It was something usually regulated to the appendix.

It appeared in Planescape material, though it wasn't named as "The Far Realm" when it did. That's official enough for me, and I've always used it as such (as one of several different realities tangent to the reality of the Great Wheel which were described or alluded to in various places in 2e and 3e).

 

[Kynn]

There are two different things at play here, and most people on either side are not talking about what the other is I think.

4E does have a 'complete history' as it were, as the backdrop for their game. Bael Turath, Arkoshia, the Nerathi Empire etc. Those permeate the entire game in the background. All of the gods are directly tied into that history, the battle between the gods and primordials are tied into that history, the eladrin and the denizens of the feywild are tied into that history. It's a setting. The Points of Light setting. The same way 3E used Greyhawk. And to have the entire game itself (mechanics and fluff) tied into that presumed setting does make things 'less universal', and thus more difficult to extricate. And this is proven by the fact that they recreated the Realms and Eberron to add a lot of this PoL history and background into those settings too.

Hold on a sec. You defined the "PoL" setting correctly, but then you say that they added PoL history and background into Forgotten Realms and Eberron.

When exactly did they do the latter? Because there's no Arkhosia in 4e Eberron. There's no "battle between the gods and primordials" in 4e Forgotten Realms.

There are dragonborn, yes, but they don't have the PoL background in either setting. There are eladrins, but they don't have the PoL background in either setting. Etc.

WotC didn't force Bael Turath into any other settings. What exactly do you mean when you say they "recreated the Realms and Eberron to add a lot of this PoL history and background into those settings too"?

 

[Kynn]

I refluffed 4e Channel Divinity feats with a simple pen. I created Muir's Justice and Thyr's Justice for a Bard's Gate campaign (3PP Necromancer Games, from the 3.x era) by tweaking an existing ChanDiv power and changing the name. 30 seconds. You can go generic with Channel Divinity easily.

Biggest problem with Channel Divinity is that they didn't allow in the builder what they said in the books you should do. I.e., allow for painless refluffing. For example, if I had a campaign where I worshiped the God of Light and Stone, I should be able to take either "Moradin" feats or "Pelor" feats, and the rules said this should be cool.

The character builder didn't -- but that was a weakness of the character builder itself and not the rules. (Feats and powers shouldn't be strongly tied to certain gods by default, which is something they learned by the time Essentials rolled around.)

 

[catsclaw227]

Biggest problem with Channel Divinity is that they didn't allow in the builder what they said in the books you should do. I.e., allow for painless refluffing. For example, if I had a campaign where I worshiped the God of Light and Stone, I should be able to take either "Moradin" feats or "Pelor" feats, and the rules said this should be cool.

The character builder didn't -- but that was a weakness of the character builder itself and not the rules. (Feats and powers shouldn't be strongly tied to certain gods by default, which is something they learned by the time Essentials rolled around.)

This is a good point. I had to print the new feats and related powers and handed them to the players, but you are right. The CB should have allowed for this.

 

[billd91]

Correct. Because if you want to change the name of Ioun to Zubalier, you can. Still don't see how this is an issue at all.

It's just one additional hassle. Sooner or later, the hassles just end up being so much of a weight that you drop the system. Had they taken a step back and called "Armor of Bahamut" "Divine Armor" the extra step by a host of individual gaming groups (nobody knows how many or few) could have been saved. That's why I think domains are a much better design for moderate customization of gods and clerics than the channeling feats in 4e.

I don't have a problem with a default setting at all. What I have a problem with is how deeply embedded it is and how meaningful that is.

 

[Alzrius]

It may have originated back then, but it was never officially part of the Great Wheel. It was something usually regulated to the appendix.

This is a semantic distinction, and a debatable one at that. What specifically was necessary to be "officially" part of the Great Wheel in 2E? In 3E?

 

[IanB]

Correct. Because if you want to change the name of Ioun to Zubalier, you can. Still don't see how this is an issue at all.

For one thing you're still stuck looking at the wrong name if you use the Character Builder and you print your sheet out, and you actually have to pick Pelor or whoever as your god in the builder and look at that on there too.

And remember the channel divinity feats are only one example of this in practice.

 

[DEFCON 1]

WotC didn't force Bael Turath into any other settings. What exactly do you mean when you say they "recreated the Realms and Eberron to add a lot of this PoL history and background into those settings too"?

I probably overstated by saying a "lot". But there are some, mainly in regards to the cosmology. The PoL cosmology was adapted into both settings by relaligning and justifying certain placement of planes in ways that hadn't been there before. I can't speak as detailed on the Realms, but I do know that in Eberron, Thelanis and Dolurrh became much more prominent as planes once they were subsumed into being the Feywild and Shadowfell. They (along with all the other planes) all revolved around the prime plane originally... but then in 4E the planes got arbitrarily assigned to the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos in addition to still revolving around the prime. On top of that, the gnomes also became Fey creatures that arrived from Thelanis at some point in the past, rather than an original Eberron race like they used to be.

You're right that the actual prime plane history of the PoL did not carry over (Bael Turath etc.), but it was the cosmology that had its greatest influence on both settings.