Getting rid of "Taking 10"

Rolling over and over when it doesn't matter isn't fun, in my own opinion.

PCs know there's a secret door in a room, DC 20. PC has +10 to find it.

Player rolls, 12, roll again

Player rolls, 17, roll again

Player rolls, 15, roll again

Player rolls, 11, roll again

Player rolls, 19, roll again

I can keep going, but you get the picture.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

The point of take 10 is that the character is doing something simple and routine with no stress or distractions to mess them up. You can't miss seeing the huge door unless someone distracts or stressing yo.

They seem to be removing take 10 anyway.
It's Take Ability Score now.

Honestly it doesn't matter what the "take" is, higher takes will just mean higher DCs. Sure, the 18str breaks down the DC 15 door, but lets face it, the guy with 18 str was probably going to have a 5-8 in their athletics skill and break down the door anyway. Really, a guy with 18 str is probably not going to fail on a DC 15 check anyway. Probability is low.
 

Some things are supposed to be a risk, and they have a chance of failure. But some things are not. What should and shouldn't require a roll is rooted in the effort to bring consistency to a setting.

For example, lifting a gate or heavy object should have no or a limited random element. If you can lift a certain amount of weight, that number doesn't change dramatically.

Same with most professional tasks. If you know how to do something well, then you're going to perform well when you attempt it. Picking a lock? Tying a rope? Deciphering a script? These don't have much of a random element to them.

The d20 system only has one random element for most tasks: the d20. It's a linear form of randomness with a huge range. This is fine in combat and other tasks where using a skill represents taking advantage of an opportunity, but it's terrible for tasks where performance should be more stable. So, for those tasks, something like taking 10 simply works better.

There's a psychology behind the idea of making the players roll, which I fully admit to falling into sometimes. It's the idea that you should never give something to the players. That they need to earn it. That without a risk of failure, success isn't satisfying.

All of these things are true, but the skill system is not the place for this aspect of design. Skills, checks, and DC's are not primarily about providing challenges, they're about describing how characters interact with their environment. The challenges, the risks, and the rewards all belong to design of the environment.

Overcoming those challenges is about the choices you make, not the die results. The risk in breaking down a door doesn't come from the die roll, but from not knowing how strong the door is or what's on the other side. Randomness is used when an aspect of the environment can't be known—when there are no predictable outcomes. They're for the things you might be able to do and the opportunities or threats that might happen.

The thing is it's not always about you failing to do something. If you try and lift a heavy gate and you fail, that failure could be anything from the gate slipped off the track or it became stuck. Also doing certain tasks you may do everyday is still inclined to failure at some point, that bad roll is supposed to represent those uncommon instances when something does happen. Professionals do mess up at times, professional isn't another word for perfection.
 

Rolling over and over when it doesn't matter isn't fun, in my own opinion.

PCs know there's a secret door in a room, DC 20. PC has +10 to find it.

Player rolls, 12, roll again

Player rolls, 17, roll again

Player rolls, 15, roll again

Player rolls, 11, roll again

Player rolls, 19, roll again

I can keep going, but you get the picture.

The players know or the PC's know? If the PC's know then why are you having them roll anyway? Now if it's the players then that's meta-gaming and shouldn't be allowed. I would do something different if that came into play.
 

Honestly it doesn't matter what the "take" is, higher takes will just mean higher DCs. Sure, the 18str breaks down the DC 15 door, but lets face it, the guy with 18 str was probably going to have a 5-8 in their athletics skill and break down the door anyway. Really, a guy with 18 str is probably not going to fail on a DC 15 check anyway. Probability is low.

Like I mentioned in my other post, if the PC does fail the check then it becomes one of those rare instances that do happen. In my games a 1 always fails no matter what. I don't care if you have +50 to the check because like I said earlier, it's not always the PC that's at fault it could be outside intervention.
 

I think that 3E's and 4E's version of Take 10 should be Take 5 instead.

If something is really mundane, then it should have a low DC. By definition, something that requires a 10 on a die roll is not mundane. It has a 45% chance of failure.

This would also take away some of my irritation with Passive Perception and Insight checks. If they were Take 5 instead of Take 10, I could as a DM throw something into a room that cannot be seen via Passive Perception, but someone who is not a Perception Monkey could still have a chance of spotting. As the game is currently played, anything that the Perception Monkey cannot spot with Passive Perception, other PCs cannot spot with a roll. Fortunately, 5E is fixing that.
 

As I've read Gumshoe under a few different beats now, I'm going the opposite direction.

Making the skills succeed automatically and allowing players to pick up more clues and information and details and benefits if they are willing to spend resources looks like a good way to handle some things.

I remember in one of the first Warhammer adventure paths put out by Green Ronin, it required a very specific skill set to move the adventure forward. If none of the players have that skill, then the adventure is at a dead end unless the GM beats it over the head with a hammer or does some other alteration.

I'm certainly not advocating all skills need such a no-roll rule but unless there are dire consequences of failing the roll, is it really necessary?
 

If the PC's know then why are you having them roll anyway?

Yeah, the PCs. So I should have them take 10 to find a secret door they are pretty sure exists, but aren't sure where it is, then? That was my point.

And that's just one example why it's a good rule. Roll when it means something, not when it doesn't.
 
Last edited:

Um, so I should have them take 10 to find a secret door they are pretty sure exists, but aren't sure where it is, then? That was my point.

And that's just one example why it's a good rule. Roll when it means something, not when it doesn't.

Meaning something varies from DM to DM actually. Some DM's make small things into a big deal. Also, pretty sure isn't the same as 100% sure so there is always that doubt.

So really your example isn't very good for why it would be a good rule. I would say that secret doors are a big deal.
 


Remove ads

Top