Substituting a spell

[RUMBLETiGER]

As a small note, Awaken Sand is already on the Sandshaper spell list.

But thank you all for your input.

Yup, and I mentioned it because I think it's potentially more powerful than Sandstorm for comparison with repeated castings, not because I was recommending it as an alternative to the spell. An army of Huge creatures that can engulf and suffocate a target can kill all those DR and fast healing opponents that have been considered when debating the potency of the Sandstorm spell.

For all it's power, even the tarrasque needs to breathe.

 

[Ragmon]

If you want to "Slay a city" get a Franzied Berserker, place him at the city gates,buff him up with spells, then give him a complementary slap on the butt and run.

 

[Dandu]

Or use Major Creation to summon antimatter...

 

[Greenfield]

And the buffs are good for how many minutes? Say 10 or 12? That's good for one, maybe two buildings. Unless people hide from the maniac and he has to search them out. Or maybe they run, and he has to chase. All tht search and chase time is burning through those buffs.

Here's a question that came up in an earlier thread, and was touched upon here: Would Transmute Rock to Mud affect building built on packed soil?

It can't affect the actual foundation or footings, since they're worked stone, but what affect does it have on earthworks that aren't stone?

Or are we going with the interpretation that uncut/field stone stacked/packed into a wall still qualifies as "unworked"? What if it's mortared in place?

It's just something Dandu brought up.

 

[Dandu]

And the buffs are good for how many minutes? Say 10 or 12? That's good for one, maybe two buildings. Unless people hide from the maniac and he has to search them out. Or maybe they run, and he has to chase. All tht search and chase time is burning through those buffs.

Assuming an 11th level caster with access to a metamagic rod of extend spell...

Buffs:

• Polymorph, duration 22 minutes (220 rounds). Possible forms: Girallon, Treant, Gray Render.
• Heroism, duration 220 minutes (2200 rounds)
• Rage, duration of concentration + 1 round/level.
• Blur, duration 22 minutes (220 rounds).

If you would like to determine how effective this tactic would be, let's set up a scenario on a the forums. I'll roll up a berserker, you can DM the citizenry, and we'll see how much of the town I can terrorize in half an hour.

Here's a question that came up in an earlier thread, and was touched upon here: Would Transmute Rock to Mud affect building built on packed soil?

It can't affect the actual foundation or footings, since they're worked stone, but what affect does it have on earthworks that aren't stone?

Wait for a heavy rain.
Cast Transmute Mud to Rock.
Cast Transmute Rock to Mud?

 

[Greenfield]

Or use Major Creation to summon antimatter...

Well, I'll take exception to the guy's bad math, as well as his attempt to bring science-fiction physics into a magical fantasy game.

A cubic yard is 27 cubic feet, so a 50th level caster can create about 1.5 cubic meters, not 15 cubic meters. So drop his maximum yield by 10.

Next, a cube is a terrible shape for this move. You want a sheet, for maximum surface exposure. The cube would have the maximum reaction against it's resting surface, since earth is much more dense than air. The initial blast would use a fraction of the mass, and launch the thing like an Atlas rocket. Presuming the cube holds together, you will have invented the intercontinental "bouncing ball of doom", as it launches itself more or less straight up, eventually falls to earth, and then repeats it's performance someplace else (Coriolis force will tend to move it in a westward direction.) Sorry, no planetary destruction, just a long range random hazard.

If it doesn't hold together then you've invented the MRV version of the same thing.

And, of course if the initial kick is enough to clear the atmosphere, then it's possible it will never land. As soon as it starts to descend it will encounter atmosphere that it can react with. That may well be enough to keep it skipping along like a stone on a lake.

In any case, the initial detonation would probably leave a crater the size of a house, and a lot of broken windows in the neighborhood.

Then, there's the basic problem that the caster is standing at ground zero. Minor oversight in the planning department.

As a DM I'd say that he'd summoned Voidstone, from the Negative Material Plane. That's D&D's closest equivalent to Antimatter, and all it will do is disintegrate normal matter that comes in contact with it. It would just destroy the surface below on a continuous basis until it was all consumed. No boom, just an interesting way to dig a new well.

 

[Dandu]

Next, a cube is a terrible shape for this move.

Perhaps if it was summoned underground?

As a DM I'd say that he'd summoned Voidstone, from the Negative Material Plane. That's D&D's closest equivalent to Antimatter, and all it will do is disintegrate normal matter that comes in contact with it. It would just destroy the surface below on a continuous basis until it was all consumed. No boom, just an interesting way to dig a new well.

Hey, are those things affected by Telekinesis?

 

[Dandu]

So, Greenfield, thoughts on Sandstorm now?

 

[Greenfield]

Well, I still think it has Slay City(block) potential, but upon review I see that the maximum power only comes into play when the ambient wind starts out at 21 mph or higher. And how often does that happen, eh?

<consults random weather chart in DMG> Oh. That often? Wow.

At that high end, victims get a Fort save every round to avoid being taken for a ride in the whirly-go-round (tornado winds), for 6D6 of bludgeoning damage per round for a D10 rounds. And that may actually be the best option, since it drops you out of the area after that. Those that manage to stay on the ground get the slow grind we spoke of earlier.

The simple fact is that it's the second largest area spell I know of (behind Control Weather, and the largest area damage spell I've seen in the game, bar none. The total amount of damage it can do is staggering, and if you're caught in the open by it it's nearly inescapable. Control Winds is comparable in area, but lacks the full damage dealing capacity.

You brought up a number of spells you considered comparable, and most fell pretty flat. Transmute Rock to Mud was probably the best contender, and that affected 220 square feet at the same caster level, and couldn't affect most buildings very much. (Maximum depth 10 feet, while any sizable structure will have foundations that go deeper than that.)

The fact is that very few D&D spells can affect anything like an actual battlefield sized area. This one comes close.

 

[Dandu]

You brought up a number of spells you considered comparable, and most fell pretty flat.

They're also lower level spells. I think that is a very important thing to keep in mind. A 6th level spell should be more powerful than 5th, which in turn should be more powerful than a 4th.

Now, let us address the crux of the issue: Why is the fact that it can affect a battlefield so significant? The only people on the battlefield who would be affected are really low level types, not the level appropriate encounters you would want to be concerned with. Sure, smiting a bunch of civilians and wrecking their houses with a 6th level spell feels empowering... in the same way that beating up a room full of grade schoolers makes you feel like a man.

Transmute Rock to Mud won't affect sizeable structures, that is true. This is specifically stated in the spell.

Castles and large stone buildings are generally immune to the effect of the spell, since transmute rock to mud can’t affect worked stone and doesn’t reach deep enough to undermine such buildings’ foundations. However, small buildings or structures often rest upon foundations shallow enough to be damaged or even partially toppled by this spell.

So unless you've got a city block filled with castles and large stone buildings (which, incidentally, seem like they would be immune to the kind of tornado force winds generated in Sandstorm) it's going to cause a lot collateral damage.

Finally, I was wondering about one thing you never addressed: if the ability to smite a city is broken, what do you say about Fireball and its capacity to set cities ablaze?