Firearms and alternatives to gunpowder

[Samloyal23]

I'm pretty sure that there are actual rules for guns in D&D. Look in the DMG, around page 140 or 150, if I recall correctly.

Most of my books, including my DMG, are in storage, no room for them where I live right now, can't find anything in that mess. I have a PH and the BOEF... lol. Thank G-d for the internet!

 

[Herobizkit]

My Quick and dirty house rules on guns:

* Guns are Simple weapon proficiency (option: Simple for one race, Exotic others).
* Guns are reskinned masterwork repeating crossbows.
* Up each crossbow type one die of damage as if it were size L.
* Hand xbow = revolver (holds 5 or 6)
* Crossbow = standard 'pistol' (holds 8 or 10)
* Hvy Xbow = Rifle. (holds 12 or more)
* double (or triple) range modifiers
* Crit becomes 19-20/x3.

 

[Greenfield]

My Quick and dirty house rules on guns:

* Guns are Simple weapon proficiency (option: Simple for one race, Exotic others).
* Guns are reskinned masterwork repeating crossbows.
* Up each crossbow type one die of damage as if it were size L.
* Hand xbow = revolver (holds 5 or 6)
* Crossbow = standard 'pistol' (holds 8 or 10)
* Hvy Xbow = Rifle. (holds 12 or more)
* double (or triple) range modifiers
* Crit becomes 19-20/x3.

Hmm. He's talking 16th century (1500s), and you're talking about 19th century (1800s).

While the first revolver did date to the 1500s, it was a "revolving arquebus", still a muzzle loader, and prone to misfires. Col. Samuel Colt invented the revolver as we know it in 1836. It was slow to catch on and his business closed down in 1842. Success came when he re-engineered his invention and opened a second factory in 1847. Then, as the old saying went, "God created man. Col. Colt made them equal."

The Sharps and Henry repeating rifles came into production just around the Civil war. (1860 or so). The quartermaster of the US army didn't like them and didn't issue them. He felt that it would encourage men to waste ammunition. It wasn't until his retirement and replacement that they began to hit the field.

The Henry rifle eventually became the Winchester, by the way.

Rifled barrels, which extend range and accuracy, were just available (in high end, custom weapons) in the late 1700s, still two centuries after the time frame he's talking about. They came into more general use with the invention of the "mini-ball" in the 1840s. The mini-ball was made to fit into the muzzle of the gun cleanly, then deform slightly when fired so it would grip the barrel grooves on the way out.

Breech loading rifles happened in 1770, and were still using powder from a powder horn.

The percussion cap, the invention that eliminated the need to strike a spark or light a fuse, was invented in the early to mid 1800s. This was the predecessor of the brass cartridge we know today, with it's primer built into a small percussion cap pressed into the back, and triggered by the firing pin on the hammer.

So none of the "repeating crossbow" arguments really apply in a 1500s tech level for firearms. Guns didn't repeat back then.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

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[Samloyal23]

So, smooth bore guns only, no repeaters, low accuracy. I think the basic Zeitgeist rules with the standard ranged feats from PH will be sufficient to start out.

I'm thinking trying to enchant an item made from my anti-magical metal should be extremely difficult, but should it be impossible? Should I restrict it to mastercraft weapons?

 

[Greenfield]

So you're thinking they have to be cold iron (as opposed to regular iron or steel, or brass or bronze)?

Rules for enchanting cold iron items are already in the game.

 

[Herobizkit]

[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION], you're assuming that guns in D&D have to function exactly as they might in the real world, and I'm assuming that guns are just another way to skin a weapon that does ranged damage.

After all, spear = longsword = morning star = 1d8 damage. Type (blunt, slash, pierce) is only relevant in a handful of cases.

 

[Samloyal23]

A basic conceit of the campaign is that one city on this big island has access to an extremely hard metal that has anti-magical properties. The city is mostly dwarves and they have picked up some of the metal's properties through long years of dwelling in the mines. Magic is hard for them to do, providing an extra incentive to develop technology like guns and simple machines. They have a few spellcasters who are mostly dedicated to making magic items because they view magic as an investment since it takes to long to cast a spell to make it useful in combat. They are alchemists and engineers instead of arcanists. I have to decide how much magic they have and how hard it is to make more...

 

[Greenfield]

@Greenfield , you're assuming that guns in D&D have to function exactly as they might in the real world, and I'm assuming that guns are just another way to skin a weapon that does ranged damage.

After all, spear = longsword = morning star = 1d8 damage. Type (blunt, slash, pierce) is only relevant in a handful of cases.

I see your point. Mechanics v game mechanics.

He talked about a specific time period and I responded to that, rather than talking about guns from a game-mechanics point of view.

Now the gun has to have some advantage over a crossbow or throwing axe, or nobody will bother using one.

The advantage of the crossbow over the longbow is that it's simpler to use, both in real life and in game.

Making the gun an exotic may be a good idea, but then it needs some other advantage to balance it. It's moving in the opposite direction from the crossbow/longbow relationship.

Flintlocks were better than matchlocks or arquebus because when you pulled the trigger, it went off pretty much right away. It makes a big difference in a fast paced combat. The difference would be reflected in attack bonus or penalty. So I'd ignore history and leap to at least the flintlock level.

I'd also speed up reload to an unrealistic levels, Move action seems right, and allow the Rapid Reload feat to apply.

Then you bump either range or damage or both.

But whatever you do, you need to keep it balanced.

Now me, personally, I'l a "do it by the book" guy. The firearms rules in the DMG may not be the best, but because they're official and in writing they're available to all the players, and they're unarguable. Somebody doesn't like them you can just show them the book.

But that's me. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Loonook]

[MENTION=21432]Samloyal23[/MENTION]: We're talking about a fantasy setting where you are going against conceits and where you have individuals that are working for hundreds of years to improve the item... When looking at rifling I found the following shrapnel round from a Russian cannon:

This looks like the kind of thing I could see a Dwarf making up in a workshop. You have a group of people who could easily come up with ideas on spin and rifling. They have to have fire to harry spellcasters, who are orbital platforms on two legs. I'm just not seeing why you cannot follow into a Modern form of firearms and have too many issues. Let them reload slowly, have breaks, etc. but they should be more gun than crossbow. "Blow things up" is on the Coat of Arms for the Dwarven Empire after all .

Slainte,

-Loonook.