Blog: Background and Themes a closer look.

[Minigiant]

One way to make themes worth looking at for the true "system enthusiast" might be the use of prerequisites. In other words, just choosing feats are subject to prerequisites, but themes are not.

For example (a pretty wild hypothetical, so just focus on the intent, not the specifics) using my Sage theme:

Linguist (Prerequisite: Intelligence 15)
Master Scholar (Prerequisite: Trained in Arcana, History, Dungeoneering, Nature, Religion)
Ritualist (Prerequisite: Ritual Caster)

However, my fighter with 14 intelligence, no training in Religion, and no ritual casting can still choose the Sage theme (and theoretically is now able to cast Rituals to boot).

Just brainstorming. Any thoughts?

My original thought/hope for themes is that they let you bypass prerequisites.

 

[Redbadge]

Another possibility is to have little extras in the theme, but not make them strictly unobtainable via the more custom route.

For example, take 4 feats with the "lore" keyword, get some "lore" rider ability on top of that. Doesn't matter if you get the feats from a single theme, custom picks, or some combination. It's just unlikely to happen unless you stick fairly close to the theme.

In effect, there is a second tier of feat-like abilities (maybe "prestige feats"? ) that are fairly difficult to get unless you commit some serious resources towards that theme's concept. If you don't mind swapping out one or two of the critical choices now, with the intent of picking them up later, you still qualify when you do finally pick up the missing ones. Take the theme unchanged, get the rider immediately.

In other words, if by some accident, you recreate an already existing theme while customizing, you'll still get the minor benefit? I like that. Instead of the Lore keyword, you could give them the "Sage" keyword, or "Slayer", keyword. Then, the feat section would say somewhere: "If you have all four "Sage" feats, you also gain a 1st level ritual of your choice (or whatever). I could live with that. Obviously, each feat might have more than 1 keyword for those that are shared amongst themes.

I also like your idea for prestige feats (perhaps they would tie into these "Advanced Themes" somehow?).

 

[Dausuul]

Then it sounds like you will be well served by choosing your own feats?

Except that choosing feats is a pain in the neck, and so is dealing with them in play. I want a mechanically simpler option, not an option that pats me on the head and tells me not to worry about the mechanics.

Basically, what we're seeing is kind of like this: You can play a classic 4E fighter, or you can play a classic 4E fighter where your powers are chosen for you in advance. I want the ability to play an Essentials knight.

 

[GM Dave]

The way it sounds to me is that a Theme is a way to simply take the work out of finding the appropriate feats. Their term "Feat Delivery System" makes it sound like by picking say, the Slayer theme, you'll get all your usual +1 to hit, +1 to dmg type feats, with some fluffy wrapping. It's basically like selecting a "build" in certain video games, the "build" tells you what you need in order to get a certain result, and it goes as far as to simply elect them for you ahead of time.

I assume pre-packaged characters only suck because there's some false choices under the expectation that you will end up customizing anyway. From the way that Wizards seems to be designing Themes, some of them will "suck" from a CharOp perspective, and some of them will be powerful strikers and hitters as thought they copied a build right off the CharOp board. It doesn't sound like they'll be including a lot of false-choice feats, it sounds like that's going to be the flavorful wrapping around the more mundane feats.

Two things WotC is going to have to consider and allow for with this idea.

1> The selection of the feats in these Themes should be done by playtest groups (or adjusted by playtest groups after initial Designer suggestions). I often find that designers tend to be poor in their feat selections and it takes player groups to re-vamp the choices.

2> The themes at roll out will age as the game bloats and new feats become available. There may be a need to annually look at the existing themes and re-vamp their feat picks to avoid everyone and their cousin re-inventing the wheel with a 'new theme' that takes and older theme and re-vamps it with one or two new feats that were not available at roll out.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

In other words, if by some accident, you recreate an already existing theme while customizing, you'll still get the minor benefit? I like that. Instead of the Lore keyword, you could give them the "Sage" keyword, or "Slayer", keyword. Then, the feat section would say somewhere: "If you have all four "Sage" feats, you also gain a 1st level ritual of your choice (or whatever). I could live with that. Obviously, each feat might have more than 1 keyword for those that are shared amongst themes.

I meant it a little more open than that, but still fairly closed. It should be able to work without the themes at all, but still allow the theme to detail what you get.

For example, there might be about 10 "Sage" feats and then two or three themes built on some of them. One or two of those feats might not even be in a theme. You can swap out any "Sage" feat for another, and still qualify for the rider, as this sticks tightly to main idea. That your particular "Sage of the Ancients" has some extra ability in dragons instead of elves is fine. But swap out one of those "Sage" feats for a "Slayer" feat, you'll have to do without the rider until and if you add another "Sage" feat.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Except that choosing feats is a pain in the neck, and so is dealing with them in play. I want a mechanically simpler option, not an option that pats me on the head and tells me not to worry about the mechanics.

Basically, what we're seeing is kind of like this: You can play a classic 4E fighter, or you can play a classic 4E fighter where your powers are chosen for you in advance. I want the ability to play an Essentials knight.

Expanding on our earlier discussion, it should also be possible to list the basic mechanics necessary in the theme, but not all the clarifications, examples, rule lawyer hedges, etc. You can read the theme, and see exactly what you are getting, from a straight mechanics, if you play to the spirit of the rules. For a lot of people, that will be enough. However, if something is unclear, you can go dig into the associated feats, to see more details about how it is supposed to work.

Normally, a split like that is more trouble than it is worth. But if they are going to split anyway, then the vast reduction in legalese in the themes will make them easy to read.

 

[am181d]

I don't think there's going to be a Rider. And why would you need one? Just make the extra ability also a feat.

 

[gideonpepys]

Of course, but non-mechanized, flavorful game elements don't really need rules, do they?

Please note the second half of my sentence: '... in this unimaginitive way'.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I don't think there's going to be a Rider. And why would you need one? Just make the extra ability also a feat.

That's a subset of the possible ways to do a Rider ability. A Rider is something extra you get for meeting the requirements.

I think a more expansive implementation of Riders would be more interesting, especially if it is includes some things not otherwise available. Just another feat (perhaps of the appropriate type) is already kind of "meh" when you have to get four others to qualify. That was kind of what I had in mind by having a second tier of "prestige feats" to fill that niche.

Bottom line, though, is that an ability is an ability--however balanced and described. The actual structure should be whatever mostly works with relatively little complexity.

 

[Ellington]

Well, themes and backgrounds have so far been a pretty mixed bag for me. I love the idea behind them and how it's an easy way to give the same class tons of flavor options.

What I don't like is how they can just be completely ignored. If a theme/background is just a few feats and class skills, I suspect seasoned players will just start handpicking them themselves rather quickly. Why don't we just allow players to pick class features since complete customization is what everyone seems to want? Classes can just be guidelines for newer players!

Sorry, that's overreacting! I mean, I haven't even seen them yet. I was just really excited when I heard about the idea of backgrounds/themes, and I hope they don't turn out to be redundant for experienced players.