Hit points & long rests: please consider?

[Neonchameleon]

But D&D goes against the whole "luck and skill" thing, which it is trying to argue for. A hit is not always a hit, and a miss is not always a miss (look at attacks which still deal damage on a miss).

D&D has always been on the luck and skill thing from 1e right the way through to 3,5. PF, and 4e.

Originally Posted by AD&D DMG, p.82
It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).
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Originally Posted by AD&D DMG, p.82
Consider a character who is a 10th level fighter with an 18 constitution. This character would have an average of 5% hit points per die, plus a constitution bonus of 4 hit points, per level, or 95 hit points! Each hit scored upon the character does only a small amount of actual physical harm - the sword thrust that would have run a 1st level fighter through the heart merely grazes the character due to the fighter's exceptional skill, luck, and sixth sense ability which caused movement to avoid the attack at just the right moment. However, having sustained 40 or 50 hit points of damage, our lordly fighter will be covered with a number of nicks, scratches, cuts and bruises. It will require a long period of rest and recuperation to regain the physical and metaphysical peak of 95 hit points.​

Originally Posted by 3.5 SRD

(and unsurprisingly identical to the PF SRD)


What Hit Points Represent

Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.
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[eamon]

A wizard isn't expected to use their hit points in combat - they should be avoiding the front lines, and if a wizard is taking more than trivial damage something is going wrong. A fighter is expected to go toe to toe with the enemy and you can't do that wthout them attacking you.

That's not a realistic assumption. The wizard will get attacked; they're an attractive target. When he's attacked, he'll be hit more frequently due to much lower AC, and when hit, since his hit dice aren't even half that of the fighters the consequences will be more severe.

In any case, if it turns out that with slow healing a fighter never gets his chance to shine and it's all about the wizards, then I'm all for some balancing act. But that's not actually the case yet, is it? Let's make a decent rule, then see if can't be balanced. And in that light, Mercutio01's suggestion is very reasonable: some quickly-healing "endurance" hit points, some serious "wounds" hit points. Even better; fighters and wizards could then well have nearly identical "wound" hit points, but as levels rise, fighters get the more interesting "endurance" points via the hit-dice mechanic to a far greater extent. Nice side effect: the higher the level, the more "epic" a party gets and the more easily it can shrug off hits.

 

[Mercutio01]

If a character can perform at full capacity at 1 HP I certainly have no problems with his regaining to full after a short rest. I frankly don't see any immersion-breaking shrapnel in there at all.

Now, if 1 HP meant he had a significant wound and a short rest healed all that, then yeah it's a little silly.

As far as we know, 1 HP meant the former, correct?

Here's an analogy for where I think we're coming from.

You seem think that my idea of a fighter with 1 HP is Monty Python's Black Knight. He's missing limbs and potentially disemboweled and just dismissing the dismemberment as a flesh wound. He's bleeding profusely and screaming "Come back here so I can bite your legs off."

I think he's more like Rocky Balboa in round 10. He's beat to hell, but isn't missing limbs and isn't shrugging it off. he's just fighting through it, but any hit might be the one to drop him down. I think he's huffing and wheezing and just barely keeping his feet, but still able to fight.

Now, in reverse, I still see Rocky Balboa after the fight. It's going to take either magic or a really long time before he's ready to fight again.



I think you see the fighter as Spider-Man. He never gets hit, every "hit" is really just Spidey dancing away at the last second, and when he finally wraps up the enemies in his web and takes a break, he's back to full health.



My heroes are gutsy every-men who step up to the plate when necessary. They're Rocky Balboa. They're Conan. They might have more skills or more strength than their peers, but what really sets them apart is their determination and guts. If they're any superhero, they're Batman Year One. The games I like to play and stories I like to read are not great people doing great things. They're normal people doing great things. It's not Hercules fighting the Nemean Lion (at least not until epic levels). It's Spartacus rising up from slave to rebel leader. It's not Superman bringing justice to Metropolis. It's Musashi Miyamoto on his way to becoming the greatest swordsman that ever lived. It doesn't start with "The Book of Five Rings." It ends with it.

I want "The Black Company," "The Name of the Wind," "Watership Down," and "Seven Samurai," not Justice League Neverwinter. That's what end-game/epic levels are for.

 

[Agamon]

Except when he magically Wolverine's himself completely healed after sleeping one night.

I don't think we'll see eye-to-eye. Which is sad, since I'm even willing to meet at a halfway point for hit point refreshing, a proposal I've seen suggested at least a few different times by a few different people that actually matches Mearls own statements about what hitpoints mean. Healing HP > Bloodied happens overnight. Healing HP < Bloodied takes longer. I like that enough that it's going into my suggestions for when Wizards asks for playtest feedback.

You're unwilling to budge at all and appear to be insisting that everyone should just suck it up, agree with mutant healing factors and full HP every night, and, worst, to not provide honest feedback to the playtest. As such, it's not worth engaging in a discussion with you anymore. I'll provide my feedback to Wizards that fast-healing is immersion breaking, doesn't work for me, and is something that I will be changing immediately upon release for all D&D games I play with this ruleset.

There is an assumption that it has to be one way or the other here. The modularity of DDN will allow people to have their cake and eat it too. Compromise is unnecessary. A simple core rule along with a more complex and realistic modular rule is far better than the compromise of a half-assed complex core rule that is more difficult add modularity to.

Discussion is useful to root out potential problems, but if you need to argue until you're blue in the face, maybe both sides have a good point, and we have a good case for setting up a module to aid appeasing both sides.

 

[Mercutio01]

Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses...Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique)...actual physical harm...However, having sustained 40 or 50 hit points of damage, our lordly fighter will be covered with a number of nicks, scratches, cuts and bruises. It will require a long period of rest and recuperation...the ability to take physical punishment and keep going...

Why is it that everyone so in favor of Hit Points representing luck always ignores these parts?

Hit points cut both ways, but healing does not. The insistence on non-magical healing invariably points only to the luck part of the HP. It never addresses, or even acknowledges the legitimate point of view, that hit points ALSO represent physical damage.

Look, if you want hit points to only ever mean luck, then have at it in your houserules. You incessant chatter that hit points should always be able to be healed mundanely and that hits are not physical damage is every bit as much of a "house-rule" as you seem to think that physical damage is.

But don't pretend that physical damage is absent from the definition of hit points. Or that mundane healing doesn't just completely ignore physical damage.

On top of that, reread that emphasized bit right there. Yeah, that bit that says "long period of rest and recuperation." That is exactly what I've been arguing in support of. That bit of actual rules advice.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Here's an analogy for where I think we're coming from.

You seem think that my idea of a fighter with 1 HP is Monty Python's Black Knight. He's missing limbs and potentially disemboweled and just dismissing the dismemberment as a flesh wound. He's bleeding profusely and screaming "Come back here so I can bite your legs off."

I think he's more like Rocky Balboa in round 10. He's beat to hell, but isn't missing limbs and isn't shrugging it off. he's just fighting through it, but any hit might be the one to drop him down. I think he's huffing and wheezing and just barely keeping his feet, but still able to fight.

Now, in reverse, I still see Rocky Balboa after the fight. It's going to take either magic or a really long time before he's ready to fight again.

What about John Mclean?

everyman... beeat to piss, but he is still fighting at 100% no matter what. He gets a min or tow to wrap his bloody feat, steal a smoke, and make a wise crack... then he is back in it. Mid dungeon (well tower, or plane or city) he takes a break then comes back just as hard as ever.

See I agree with you AND want hps back.

1hp or 20hp or 100 hp on a 20th level fighter with 144hp total doesn't give him any negatives... like MClean, not like rocky who is obviusly not throwing 100%

I would be fine with every ext rest you get to roll full HD to regain hp THEN recharge all HD. Then have models with Half and a fourth HD...

 

[Elodan]

I think this is one of those cases where one side is not going to convert the other to his/her way of thinking.

I'm wondering if the core rules can't have either a couple of options listed under a topic or the good ole optional rules sidebars under the topic.

Example:

Full Rest
General description

Option 1:
Recover all hit points

Option 2:
Roll total # of HD and recover total rolled plus Con mod

Option 3:
Recover level + Con mod (min 1)

Sidebar option is to pick a default and then have the other options are alternates in the sidebar. Granted, no matter what option you pick as the default, you're going to tick someone off but I really don't see what it could hurt to include some options in the core book.

I'd personally like to the options approach for some of the more 'controversial' rules where you've got a good split down the middle and no one wants to compromise.

 

[Mercutio01]

I would be fine with every ext rest you get to roll full HD to regain hp THEN recharge all HD. Then have models with Half and a fourth HD...

I like John McClain, but I don't think he's fighting at full power by the end anymore than you think Rocky's punches are landing with the same strength behind them. And that rule would be fine with me, too.

I think this is one of those cases where one side is not going to convert the other to his/her way of thinking.

I'm wondering if the core rules can't have either a couple of options listed under a topic or the good ole optional rules sidebars under the topic.
<snip>
I'd personally like to the options approach for some of the more 'controversial' rules where you've got a good split down the middle and no one wants to compromise.

I think you're right on the money there. And, as I've said before, this isn't like a game-changer for me It's just not something I like at all. I'm not going to shun the game if what's in the playtest is the only option. I'm just not going to ever use it as is.

 

[Stalker0]

My heroes are gutsy every-men who step up to the plate when necessary. They're Rocky Balboa. They're Conan. They might have more skills or more strength than their peers, but what really sets them apart is their determination and guts.

Here is my counterpoint. I recognize that flavorwise, people like the idea of a gritty world where wounds take a while to heal or at least are somewhat realistic.

My question though: how often does it come up in a typical game? I can tell you that the parties I DMed and played in under 3e had no issues guzzling healing points and hitting themselves with Lesser Vigor Wands (because really, CLW wands are so last season).


Currently the healing rules are modular enough that they can be altered to the taste of the DM running the world. He can make the healing rules more gritty or less. So the question is....where should the default baseline be set?

My answer....where the majority of people play their games.

So....where do most people play? Do people commonly have their characters rest normally....or are they almost entirely relying on magical healing? If its the latter, than the baseline should be stronger nonmagical healing....and let those who want their gritty game tweak to taste.

 

[gweinel]

Today i finally managed to get the playtest material and i have to say that the thing that really turned me off was the short and long rest and in general the healing mechanic.
There is no need to argue with the ppl who like the rule. It is fine for me.

But my gaming style does not come in line with this rule. It breaks my gaming immersion. The sad thing is that the healing part is so vital feature in the game, so hard-coded, that i think even house-ruled will take too much effort to change the flow of the game and the pace of the encounters.

Regardless of how fine is the game or not, a lesson that i learned from 4th edition, is that the healing surge feature was spoiling my gaming experience. I am not gonna sit down and invest in game that has hard-coded my main objection of 4e (although i ll playtest the material with my gaming group). The healing is hugely tied to the flow of the game. A core pace like that is simply not included in gaming style.