Advantages / Disadvantages

[variant]

It's quick and fun for now, but I think this one will need a lot of play testing at many kinds of levels. I suspect I'll see an advantage/ disadvantage chart at some point, because I just don't think the "that kobold's one disadvantage cancels out my five advantages???" is going to fly very well.

I think you misread the rules. You never have five advantages, you only have 'advantage'. Having a disadvantage from a single source will counter an advantage from a single source, if you are getting advantage from multiple sources and only a have a disadvantage from one source, you will have advantage.

 

[frankthedm]

Love the advantage / disadvantage system. Sucks the player's lucky rolls at double rate.

 

[Frostmarrow]

'Suggestion for handling lots of creatures that have advantage - roll all attacks at once, re-roll only the misses.'

-Note that this idea was all my own genius and in no way cut and paste from the twitter feed of Mike Mearls.

I haven't tried it yet but to me it sounds like rerolling misses with advantage and confirming hits with disadvantage might suit me better than rolling two dice and pick one.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I haven't tried it yet but to me it sounds like rerolling misses with advantage and confirming hits with disadvantage might suit me better than rolling two dice and pick one.

its also easier. This way, allowing someone with more than one advantage reroll a third time is not clunky at all.
You could also make the reroll with a bonus or a penalty to account for more than one advantage.

So:
advantage: reroll the die if you miss.
one advantage: +0 on reroll
two advantages: +2 on reroll etc.

disadvantage: reroll the die if you hit
one disadvantage: -0 on reroll
two disadvantages: -2 on reroll

etc.
if we notice, that advantage is too god, and disadvantage is too hard, we could start the rerolls with -2 for advantage and +2 for disadvantage.

You could say: why not just apply a bonus/penalty to the first roll? -Because about half of the time, you don´t have to reroll, as your first thrown die will show the non reroll condition.

 

[Walking Dad]

...

I totally agree with you that having both is just too fiddly for words. Some things giving +2 and others giving advantage is a mess. Of the two, I prefer advantage because I find it a pain tracking itty-bitty fiddly modifiers.

...

They were in 4e, for the Avenger, and I find two rolls and taking the higher, or lower, to be MUCH faster than a flat bonus.

... Also, having extra math is just annoying and isn't fun at all. Both 3e and 4e had +2/-2 circumstance modifiers, how many here actually remembered to use them?

But it isn't one or another. See the Divine Favor spell for example (which gives a +1) on attacks. I could see the advantage (no pun) of the Advantage/Disadvantage system if it would replace anything. But it only adds.

It is also somewhat meta-gamy:
If one knows the enemy is cursed, he will not try a feint, because it wouldn't help further, because Advantage doesn't stack.

Or a fighter happily moving into waist deep water, knowing that he was cursed before, so the additional Disadvantage will have no effect on his abilities.

 

[Walking Dad]

... Monsters will have special abilities that make everyone have disadvantage (pathfinder did it with the pugwampi and all my players HATED that). Once something is a core mechanic it gets abused (rerolls, swift/minor actions, immediate actions, etc, all got out of hand).

I'll vote no.

It already does... kobolds get advantage if they outnumber the player. A playtest report had 40 kobolds throwing spears, meaning you have to roll 2d20 40 times... (you cannot just roll 80 or you will get the wrong math )

 

[Walking Dad]

I don't understand the rolling 12 times argument. Do you only own one d20?

Alright vs an AC of 14 without a +:

2d20 → [11,2] = miss
2d20 → [19,20] = hit (crit)
2d20 → [18,2] = hit
2d20 → [20,18] = hit (crit)
2d20 → [14,19] = hit
2d20 → [18,14] = hit
2d20 → [20,4] = hit (crit)
2d20 → [6,16] = hit
2d20 → [2,14] = hit
2d20 → [12,1] = miss
2d20 → [18,6] = hit
2d20 → [3,1] = miss
2d20 → [3,13] = miss
2d20 → [17,1] = hit
2d20 → [20,15] = hit (crit)
2d20 → [13,19] = hit
2d20 → [16,9] = hit
2d20 → [18,16] = hit
2d20 → [12,1] = miss
2d20 → [4,10] = miss
2d20 → [8,12] = miss
2d20 → [2,11] = miss
2d20 → [16,17] = hit
2d20 → [19,16] = hit
2d20 → [13,1] = miss
2d20 → [16,18] = hit
2d20 → [17,13] = hit
2d20 → [8,3] = miss
2d20 → [7,19] = hit
2d20 → [10,14] = hit
2d20 → [16,20] = hit (crit)
2d20 → [16,15] = hit
2d20 → [9,14] = hit
2d20 → [7,20] = hit (crit)
2d20 → [11,13] = miss
2d20 → [17,8] = hit
2d20 → [7,10] = miss
2d20 → [13,4] = miss
2d20 → [3,16] = hit
2d20 → [18,16] = hit


13 miss, 27 hit (6 critical)


but without ordering them to pairs:

2d20 → [11,2] = miss, miss
2d20 → [19,20] = hit, hit (crit)
2d20 → [18,2] = hit, miss
2d20 → [20,18] = hit (crit), hit
2d20 → [14,19] = hit, hit
2d20 → [18,14] = hit, hit
2d20 → [20,4] = hit (crit), miss
2d20 → [6,16] = miss, hit
2d20 → [2,14] = miss, hit
2d20 → [12,1] = miss, miss
2d20 → [18,6] = hit, miss
2d20 → [3,1] = miss, miss
2d20 → [3,13] = miss, miss
2d20 → [17,1] = hit, miss
2d20 → [20,15] = hit (crit), hit
2d20 → [13,19] = miss, hit
2d20 → [16,9] = hit, miss
2d20 → [18,16] = hit, hit
2d20 → [12,1] = miss, miss
2d20 → [4,10] = miss, miss
2d20 → [8,12] = miss, miss
2d20 → [2,11] = miss, miss
2d20 → [16,17] = hit, hit
2d20 → [19,16] = hit, hit
2d20 → [13,1] = miss, miss
2d20 → [16,18] = hit, hit
2d20 → [17,13] = hit, miss
2d20 → [8,3] = miss, miss
2d20 → [7,19] = miss, hit
2d20 → [10,14] = miss, hit
2d20 → [16,20] = hit, hit (crit)
2d20 → [16,15] = hit, hit
2d20 → [9,14] = miss, hit
2d20 → [7,20] = miss, hit (crit)
2d20 → [11,13] = miss, miss
2d20 → [17,8] = hit, miss
2d20 → [7,10] = miss, miss
2d20 → [13,4] = miss, miss
2d20 → [3,16] = miss, hit
2d20 → [18,16] = hit, hit


count only hits and misses and now try to determine how many actually hit of the 40 attack

 

[Walking Dad]

The owlbear has three attacks, so I have to roll 6 times if it has advantage? Hypothetical: The mid level fighter has three attacks and a couple henchmen, so he has to roll 10 times per round if he has advantage?

I don't understand the rolling 12 times argument. Do you only own one d20?

Maybe I should have only done the owlbear attack. Rolling all dice at the same time means:

2d20 → [15,8] = hit
2d20 → [5,12] = miss
2d20 → [3,14] = hit

is the same for you as:

2d20 → [15,14] = hit
2d20 → [5,12] = miss
2d20 → [3,8] = miss




Taking the hypothetical 14 again, you see the difference.

It also means each attack has to be rolled separately. Without A/D, the DM could just pick up 3d20, roll them and done.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Maybe I should have only done the owlbear attack. Rolling all dice at the same time means:

2d20 → [15,8] = hit
2d20 → [5,12] = miss
2d20 → [3,14] = hit

is the same for you as:

2d20 → [15,14] = hit
2d20 → [5,12] = miss
2d20 → [3,8] = miss




Taking the hypothetical 14 again, you see the difference.

It also means each attack has to be rolled separately. Without A/D, the DM could just pick up 3d20, roll them and done.

Good argument. I guess the reroll all misses is simpler than rolling more than one die.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It is also somewhat meta-gamy:
If one knows the enemy is cursed, he will not try a feint, because it wouldn't help further, because Advantage doesn't stack.

Or a fighter happily moving into waist deep water, knowing that he was cursed before, so the additional Disadvantage will have no effect on his abilities.

Remember: having an advantage does not mean, that the opponent has a disadvantage.
So a cursed enemy may have disadvantage, but still you need to get advantage for your attack.
The cursed enemy however will try to feint, as he can at least cancel out his disadvantage.

Kobolds also can safely attack on bright light, when they outnumber their foes, as their advantage and disadvantage cancel out. Also a continual light spells instantly negates the advantage the kobolds have.

The figter in your example should also think twice about going into deeper water. Because beeing cursed may only give attack disadvantage (I don´t know where i can look up curse...) and beeing in water against someone shooting at you gives them attack advantage. Also if you have double disadvantage, there is no way, you can mitigate it or gain advantage.

And lastly you could even rule, that if the fighter is too deep in the water, he can´t effectively use his twohanded sword.