Cantrips as encounter powers?

[UngeheuerLich]

When you read about magic beeing too abundantly availabe, I believe, cantrips could be reduced from at-will spells to encounter powers. This allows you to use them a lot, but at the same time can´t be spammed like crazy.

Just say, every minor spell can be cast a number of times equal to your ability modifier. This way, MM, ray of frost etc. can´t be used exclusively... this way, the game coul become more exciting.

 

[Gorgoroth]

When you read about magic beeing too abundantly availabe, I believe, cantrips could be reduced from at-will spells to encounter powers. This allows you to use them a lot, but at the same time can´t be spammed like crazy.

There are no encounter powers in D&D Next, are there? The way to limit them would be to make them daily but give a larger pool of uses. If I need to light 5 torches on fire, NOW, I don't care about lighting 5 torches, one every five minutes. Let people use their spells when they want to / need to. If at-will spammyness is bad, place a limit on the total number per day, not make it recharge at the end of an arbitrary "encounter".

pretty sure there will be no encounter powers. And good riddance to them too!

 

[Abstruse]

No. Nerf them if you want, but don't limit them. I remember playing a wizard back in 3rd Ed and I never ever ever ever ever ever ever want to see another "great sage and student of the mystic arts" using a friggin' crossbow.

 

[dammitbiscuit]

Encounter powers are very unpopular with 3.5ers, and even 4ers seem to find encounter powers to feel like a rather arbitrary restriction.

I do, however, support your desire to make at-wills not be completely unlimited, and to encourage players to rotate between them. Prior to coming up with my Tap/Unleash mechanic, I was working on a rule module wherein each at-will spell is unlimited, but recharges a bit too slowly to use every single round. I ultimately dropped the idea for being a little too fiddly, but here's where I was with it:

1. At-wills have up to 2 "charges"
2. Automatically gain a charge every other round
3. Thus, combat wizards will need to know 2 attack cantrips for long fights, or be skilled with a weapon
4. For instance, you could cast Magic Missile, Magic Missile (recharge), Magic Missle, then you're out of Magic Missiles and must use Ray of Frost, Orb of Acid, or a Crossbow for this turn. This turn, MM will gain a charge, therefore you can use it next turn, and every other turn after that.

I think it's a little too bookkeepy, and if a wizard can simply alternate between cantrips to spam anyways, why not just let them spam their favorite? Maybe it'll give someone a better idea, though.

Having more uses of your cantrips is still Vancian magic and thus forcing the wizard to expend resources every round just to keep up, and I think we can do better than that. There are surely a few good middle-ground options we can explore in between the extremes of Vancian's "Out of magic, time for a nap!" and AEDU's "I don't attack with weapons, I attack with spells!"

 

[the Jester]

When you read about magic beeing too abundantly availabe, I believe, cantrips could be reduced from at-will spells to encounter powers.

First of all, let's not have any game stuff that breaks immersion. The "encounter" is a highly artificial concept. I mean, how do you define an "encounter"?

Let's say a party sneaks up on a pair of sentries at the entrance to a kobold lair and kills one but the other runs into the lair. The party immediately rushes after the survivor, only to screech to a halt when a portcullis falls. They move up and spend three rounds messing with the portcullis, but then more kobolds appear from a secret door and start throwing oil from the party's rear. The party turns to engage, but the kobolds slam the secret door. The party then spends three or four minutes finding and opening the secret door. When they open it and move past, they trigger a pit trap and the lead pc falls in, landing in a fast-moving stream and getting swept out of sight (and nearly drowned!). He ends up dragging himself onto a small islet about ten minutes later and has to fight his way through a pair of giant crabs.

How many encounters is that for the guy that got swept away?

Or let's say the party is traveling through exhausting swampy terrain. If they stop, they start to sink. They are moving for many hours without cease. Along the way, they fight some monsters three different times. No rest- is that one encounter or three?

I say all this as a fan of 4e, too- and I initially really liked the per-encounter model. But I'd much rather have a "per-minute" or "per-day" model, because a minute or day has actual meaning to the character, rather than just the player. That's one of the things that spoils immersion in 4e, to my mind.

 

[pemerton]

Let's say a party sneaks up on a pair of sentries at the entrance to a kobold lair and kills one but the other runs into the lair. The party immediately rushes after the survivor, only to screech to a halt when a portcullis falls. They move up and spend three rounds messing with the portcullis, but then more kobolds appear from a secret door and start throwing oil from the party's rear. The party turns to engage, but the kobolds slam the secret door. The party then spends three or four minutes finding and opening the secret door. When they open it and move past, they trigger a pit trap and the lead pc falls in, landing in a fast-moving stream and getting swept out of sight (and nearly drowned!). He ends up dragging himself onto a small islet about ten minutes later and has to fight his way through a pair of giant crabs.

How many encounters is that for the guy that got swept away?

Or let's say the party is traveling through exhausting swampy terrain. If they stop, they start to sink. They are moving for many hours without cease. Along the way, they fight some monsters three different times. No rest- is that one encounter or three?

There are no short rests in any of what you describe, so by 4e standards each is one encounter.

 

[dammitbiscuit]

He wasn't testing your ability to make a 4e ruling, he was demonstrating that "encounter" is a bad fit for more organic events.

 

[pemerton]

He wasn't testing your ability to make a 4e ruling, he was demonstrating that "encounter" is a bad fit for more organic events.

There are a lot RPGs with various forms of "per encounter" ability, with organic events. 4e's short rest model is just one.

The reason it causes trouble for (say) 3E, or classic D&D, or the playtest, isn't because events are "organic". It's because the rules of the game focus heavily on ingame rather than metagame measures for the passage of time.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

First of all, let's not have any game stuff that breaks immersion. The "encounter" is a highly artificial concept. I mean, how do you define an "encounter"?

think of it differently.

Catrips are so easy to memorize, that you can do it after a short rest.

 

[Daern]

I posted this on my blog...

So I've been thinking about D&D Type V a bit. Like I said, it was fine, and more like my current style than Type IV, but the Wizard's At-Will Magic Missile thing bugged me. Automatic damage is kinda lame unless its a full on spell like Flaming Hands where the monsters roll saving throws to halve the damage.

The problem is that automatic damage makes your decisions less strategic/tactical.

Wizards have always been the class where you have to think a little bit harder about what you are going to do. These at-will cantrips take that away, making them more like super hero powers.

My solution: Make all At-wills Encounter Powers. This makes the decision to use such spells more of a decision, but keeps them available throughout the session.

Of course, a big problem with Encounter Powers is the "dissociated mechanics" issue, but that is easily worked around with spells. Simply make the rule that all Cantrips and Orisons require 1 minute of preparation each between casting. (This would involve some sort of quick ritual or component prep) One minute prep means possible to get a spell back during a particularly long battle but it is not an option to simply cast spells like a fighter swinging a sword.

Presto, fixed!