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AoO and "circling"

Should AoOs be provoked by moving around an enemy?

  • Yes, I like them the way they've been.

    Votes: 31 44.3%
  • No, you can move around your enemy all you want.

    Votes: 20 28.6%
  • No, but only if your ally is in melee range of the enemy.

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • I have another idea! (please elaborate)

    Votes: 10 14.3%

Apparently I was thinking of giving someone else Advantage, which is the 'Help' action. I suppose to help yourself, you must improvise...

But, OK, if you were talking about 'an advantage' instead of the Advantage mechanic, no problem.
 

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This is one area where they can take a page from Fantasy Craft.

It does not have Attack of Opportunity in it's base rule. However, once you move adjacent to an enemy, you stop moving, unless you make a Tumble skill check equal to 20 + 5 per enemy square you are tumbling through or 10 + 5 per adjacent enemy adjacent to or in the path that's along the path... or if the enemy is flat footed then you can move by him freely.

It's really genius. It cuts down on all the crappy circling maneuvers that people make that do not logically make a lot of sense, it shows that if you are adjacent to an attentive target you stop moving, or you make to tumble your way past and the DC is dependant on how many enemies you wish to move by. It's easier to move by one than three, for example.

However, Fantasy Craft being the tactical game it has, has a slew of options, mainly through Feats, that could allow someone a Free Attack depending on the situation.

An example is Polearm Mastery, a feat that allows you to gain a free attack once per round against an opponent when it enters a square adjacent to you, while you wield a polearm. This attack does half damage. This feat also gives a Trick, which allows you to do extra damage when wielding a Polearm.

Another is Flail Basics, which allows a flail wielder, once per round to gain a free attack against an adjacent flat footed character, with a -4 penalty.

Just examples of a game with No Attacks of Opportunities yet keeping all the tactical advantages we love, plus many more.

all Attacks of Opportunities have been, to me, is a headache. It causes people to think, then rethink, then reposition their mini till they FINALLY found the best spot that would incur the least amount of AoO's and it makes for very boring combats.
 

2) I don't see anything that says it cost an entire action to do something to gain advantage.

Its probably refering to this:

'In general, I would advise DMs to apply advantage whenever the player is spending an action in advance to get the advantage.' - Rule of Three, 06/05/2012
 

Systematic rule systems are indeed cool and easy to remember (great in theory). I just see the danger that - to elaborate on your interacting wheels example - one can introduce more and more wheels into the gearbox, so that it gets more and more complicated to evaluate the machine without missing any of the wheels (less so in praxis), but I freely admit that missing single elements will have no greater effect than the fuzziness of a GM's decisions with laxer rules.
I see the danger, for sure - but I find that much the same can apply to "Rulings", only worse! Assuming we want consistency (and I pretty much always do), then each "Ruling" is actually a rule by precedent. These build up in much the same way that continually appended systematic systems, but there is not the degree of thought given to future rules clashes and compatibility with earlier rulings that there (hopefully) is with a pre-codified system. I tend to find that "Rulings" is fine - liberating and invigorating, even - in the short term, but it tends to become more and more gnarly with time and thus lose out in the longer term. Since I like to run games that run for a long (game) time (my 4e games, for example, I aim to take from 1st to 30th level) I find pre-written, codified rules suit me far better.

My personal experiences may be responsible for my stance: in hindsight I've spent to much time waiting for my players to agonizingly make sure that they have taken all - and I mean all - bonuses and effects and magic items and and and into account before rolling their die. Again, it's not the rules engine I've lost some enthusiasm for, it's the amount of data thrown in to be processed.
I think maybe I am lucky, here. All of the players I run for take on a duty to understand the basics of the rules and to gain a knowledge of what their character can do. It helps, maybe, that we do run for extended campaigns; they have the same character for 20-30 levels, so they should get a pretty good grip on what their abilities are in that time, even though the details change level by level. For myself, I find that once I reach a certain point of "rules grokkage" I do think first about what I want to achieve and then I "translate" that into rules terms. To pick an example quoted in this thread:

I have a single fighter and I have a 25' wide gap to block - how do I approach it (in 4e)? Readied charge against the first enemy to cross a specified line (probably the line of entry to the gap). Looking at my decision, I think that models the situation pretty well; I will likely block one opponent trying to get past me, but a second will have a pretty easy time getting by.

The problem with these videos is they are not actually competing, so there ignoring openings and indeed leaving deliberate openings. The guy in the first video wearing red is particularly static, he stands around for seconds waiting for his opponent to actually hit him, rather than moving.
Yes, the videos I chose were mostly "instructional" ones; there are some that are more like "free sparring" here. The problem with the sparring ones is that you need to be careful which ones you pick; I have seen several where the combatants clearly had little or no training or even familiarity with the more "valid" medieval martial techniques that we are currently in the middle of (re-)learning from the old fechtbuchs and manuscripts. The link I gave has some pretty good ones - including, incidentally, a "longsword" (in D&D terms, a "bastard sword") versus rapier duel - try watching it and then tell me which has the higher "weapon speed factor"!

At least with sport you have two people actually trying to strike one another at every opportunity.
Yeah, the "sport" thing is actually both a good thing and a bad thing. It's good that both sides are seriously trying to hit, not just going through "katas", but the problem is that they are trying just to hit - not to hit in specific places or with sufficient force to seriously hurt or temporarily disable an opponent. As a result, they will sometimes open themselves up to what could be a devastating counter in order to "score" first - the action thus tends to be both faster and less forceful. Put simply, I'm going to attack you quite differently if I just want to tag you than if my aim is to run you through.

But all of that ignores the real complexity of the system: shifting. The best reason to get rid of OAs is to get rid of shifts (and five-foot-adjusts).
OK, but this gets to the nub of what I was trying to point up in those videos; watch how the fighters move, not just how far they move. They don't "walk" around in a normal sense - the movement is more like a shuffle, or a set of dance moves (which, incidentally, is why warriors' training has often included dancing lessons!). In this sense, I think the inclusion of a separate "movement mode" is actually very evocative of the fiction; "movement" is walking or trotting around normally, "shifting" (maybe a naff word, but that happens a lot in 4e) is the sort of choreographed shuffles and dance steps that you see in the videos when moving around an armed and dangerous opponent.

So, if you want a skill check for passing through a melee, try "dancing"!
 
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Its probably refering to this:

'In general, I would advise DMs to apply advantage whenever the player is spending an action in advance to get the advantage.' - Rule of Three, 06/05/2012

Hmm, that would be a poor ruling for the reasons already pointed out.
 

I like opportunity attacks, but I don't mind if it becomes an a feature of melee builds. I don't care if the archer ranger or wizard simply can't make opportunity attacks, but the melee fighter or the swashbuckling rogue should be able to punish an enemy who is not paying sufficient attention to them. Similarly, an ogre bruiser will be difficult to walk around casually, but a skeletal archer doesn't pose as much of a threat to your moving around it.

I'd be happy with the ability to make opportunity attacks becoming a feature/trait of class/build/monster/whatever. It also speeds up resolution in cases where the wizard with his 8 strength is not wasting time trying to punch an iron golem that's walking by him.
 

The playtest rules do provide a possible alternative to Opportunity Attacks: Characters who make ranged attacks whilst adjacent to an opponent suffer Disadvantage on their attacks.

The same sort of penalty could apply to characters who move too much in melee - either they suffer Disadvantage on their next attack, or they grant Advantage to their opponent. I'd tend to go with the latter.

I actually like this idea, and find it reasonable to use some sort of Ad/Disad rule in conjunction with more than 5 feet of movement. Something simple like, you do not provoke AoO as long as you do not move out of your opponent's reach, but your opponent has Advantage on his next turn if he targets you with an attack.

...I think the inclusion of a separate "movement mode" is actually very evocative of the fiction; "movement" is walking or trotting around normally, "shifting" (maybe a naff word, but that happens a lot in 4e) is the sort of choreographed shuffles and dance steps that you see in the videos when moving around an armed and dangerous opponent.

So, if you want a skill check for passing through a melee, try "dancing"!

I agree that shift is compelling, and I like the concept for leaving the range of an opponent's reach. I just find the concept of only being able to safely move 5 feet around an opponent a little too limiting.

I like opportunity attacks, but I don't mind if it becomes an a feature of melee builds. I don't care if the archer ranger or wizard simply can't make opportunity attacks, but the melee fighter or the swashbuckling rogue should be able to punish an enemy who is not paying sufficient attention to them. Similarly, an ogre bruiser will be difficult to walk around casually, but a skeletal archer doesn't pose as much of a threat to your moving around it.

I'd be happy with the ability to make opportunity attacks becoming a feature/trait of class/build/monster/whatever. It also speeds up resolution in cases where the wizard with his 8 strength is not wasting time trying to punch an iron golem that's walking by him.

I also agree with this. I find it far more probable that an angry, axe-wielding orc trying to move past a deadly, but decidedly frail, Wizard, would be far more likely to cause the Wizard to move away than stand his ground and try to slap/poke the orc with all his (nigh negligible) might.
 

I'm generally opposed to OAs, but I like the Disadvantage/Advantage ideas being expressed... so I'm more than happy to make OAs default if they're heavily curtailed. Anyway, the next time I get to run the playtest, I'll try the following...

  • Movement away from the threatened range of an enemy can cost an extra 5 feet of movement. A creature can choose to not pay the cost, but there are consequences.
  • If a creature does not pay the movement cost, their actions for that turn have Disadvantage. Disadvantage can be mitigated by granting an OA to the enemy creatures being bypassed.
  • If a creature accepts the OA, the creature can make a basic melee attack against the creature granting the OA. However, this has a consequence.
  • Creatures making an OA grant Advantage on the next attack against them.

This is definitely more complicated than I would like, but I'll give it a shot on the next playtest session I run. My players did mention that they missed at least some OAs during our session. I'm going to post this to our personal messageboard to see what they think.
 

I agree that shift is compelling, and I like the concept for leaving the range of an opponent's reach. I just find the concept of only being able to safely move 5 feet around an opponent a little too limiting.
Right - but in 4e, at least, training will get you past the limitation. Fighters get Pass Forward, Rogues and anyone with Streetwise skill get Navigate Crowds or an equivalent, snd some attack routines include multiple shifts. Your average wizard might not be able to move more than 10' (2 shifts) in a turn around armed hostiles, but then they aren't trained for combat manoeuvre.

I'm generally opposed to OAs, but I like the Disadvantage/Advantage ideas being expressed... so I'm more than happy to make OAs default if they're heavily curtailed. Anyway, the next time I get to run the playtest, I'll try the following...
That all seems a bit convoluted. I would be tempted to try something a little more radical:

- Make each "space" 10' (or even 15') across instead of 5'.
- Being in the same space with an opponent is "in melee contact"
- Leaving a space requires an action (as well as the requisite movement) or taking an OA from any and all enemy in the space.

I use the word 'space' deliberately; it could be represented by hexagons or squares on a map, or it could just be notional "spheres" on a map or in the "Theatre of the Mind".
 


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