D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[TwinBahamut]

I'm curious, how do magic weapons and armor fit into your views of the fighter? See IMO, what you are saying would be true... if the fighter was a normal human with normal gear fighting giants, dragons, etc. then yes he would die and die quickly... but he's not. I mean even looking at Achilles as an example... alot of his bad-assness is because he's magically invulnerable except for his heel (magic armor???). Take that away and one has to wonder exactly how great Achilles would have been.

I'll just say that the idea of Fighters being entirely dependent on equipment in order to be useful is extremely unappealing. I'd much rather play as a warrior who is a uniquely skilled warrior who defeats his foes with his built up strength, experience, and technique, rather than a minor grunt who is interchangeable with any other grunt other than the fancy equipment he's been given...

Heck, to point out the extreme end of this case, I'll switch genres completely...

One of my favorite genres of anime and videogames is the mecha genre. You know, people fighting high-stakes battles in giant robots. This is a genre where the idea of equipment being more important than a warrior's skill would make the most sense, but even in this genre battles are a contest of skill between ace pilots rather than a matter of determining which side has the more expensive weapons. In fact, it's a general trope of the genre that the best weapons can only ever be used by pilots of exceptional skill and ability, and that the best pilots can use terrible equipment to defeat even very well-equipped foes.

That's what I prefer. If you give a random town guard a +5 sword, he shouldn't be the equal of a legendary champion. Rather, he shouldn't even be able to wield the sword at all. It's not like just anyone was worthy to wield Excalibur, or that an ordinary warrior could throw the Gae Bolg, or that just anyone could string Odysseus's bow. Legendary warriors should both be able to defeat countless foes without their mighty weapons and be the only people who can even use their mighty weapons. Weapons of great power should be representative of the skill of their wielder, not the source of their wielder's power.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm curious, how do magic weapons and armor fit into your views of the fighter? See IMO, what you are saying would be true... if the fighter was a normal human with normal gear fighting giants, dragons, etc. then yes he would die and die quickly... but he's not. I mean even looking at Achilles as an example... alot of his bad-assness is because he's magically invulnerable except for his heel (magic armor???). Take that away and one has to wonder exactly how great Achilles would have been.

The simple answer is not magic enough. We know what +2 chain is worth. (about as much as field plate). We know how much protection magic armour gives over being almost naked from third degree burns (normally none at all). We know how much of a pounding a fighter can take if he isn't wearing armour (as much as when armoured). We know how badass a fighter is tossed into the arena with just a longsword (pretty damn badass).

The concept that the fighter is basically Iron Man fits neither fluff nor mechanics IMO. And is a really bad idea in the game that gave rise to the term Greyhawking. (Or a really awesome one as long as you never introduce an NPC fighter).

And given Achilles couldn't overtake a tortoise, not very badass. But seriously Hector went toe to toe with Achilles for a long time which says things about both of them. And we have no source for the dipping in the Styx dating back past the first century AD.

 

[AngryMojo]

Well, if they are clever with their modularity, the system itself doesn't have to pick. You will get to pick which one works for your table.

A tall order, I know. But darned spiffy if it works.

I actually see many from that list as being a rather idealized adventuring party. Achilles, Ajax and Odysseus all fought on the same side in the Iliad, and had their own strengths. In a lot of ways you have two different fighters along with a clever rogue. Achilles may have gone into a murderous rampage on the back half of the book, but Ajax was known as the "Wall of the Achaeans" for a reason. Odysseus got an entire book to himself, from an adventuring standpoint the guy would contribute at least as much as Achilles.

 

[Imaro]

I'll just say that the idea of Fighters being entirely dependent on equipment in order to be useful is extremely unappealing. I'd much rather play as a warrior who is a uniquely skilled warrior who defeats his foes with his built up strength, experience, and technique, rather than a minor grunt who is interchangeable with any other grunt other than the fancy equipment he's been given...

Heck, to point out the extreme end of this case, I'll switch genres completely...

One of my favorite genres of anime and videogames is the mecha genre. You know, people fighting high-stakes battles in giant robots. This is a genre where the idea of equipment being more important than a warrior's skill would make the most sense, but even in this genre battles are a contest of skill between ace pilots rather than a matter of determining which side has the more expensive weapons. In fact, it's a general trope of the genre that the best weapons can only ever be used by pilots of exceptional skill and ability, and that the best pilots can use terrible equipment to defeat even very well-equipped foes.

That's what I prefer. If you give a random town guard a +5 sword, he shouldn't be the equal of a legendary champion. Rather, he shouldn't even be able to wield the sword at all. It's not like just anyone was worthy to wield Excalibur, or that an ordinary warrior could throw the Gae Bolg, or that just anyone could string Odysseus's bow. Legendary warriors should both be able to defeat countless foes without their mighty weapons and be the only people who can even use their mighty weapons. Weapons of great power should be representative of the skill of their wielder, not the source of their wielder's power.

I don't think you understand me... The fighter is still the penultimate warrior... and his skill and prowess very much still make a difference, since one would have to wield these weapons of power and use the enchanted armor correctly. So no, Random Town guard with a +5 magic sword still gets owned by Achilles with a +5 magic sword because his skill is still magnitudes higher than the Town Guard.

 

[Imaro]

The simple answer is not magic enough. We know what +2 chain is worth. (about as much as field plate). We know how much protection magic armour gives over being almost naked from third degree burns (normally none at all). We know how much of a pounding a fighter can take if he isn't wearing armour (as much as when armoured). We know how badass a fighter is tossed into the arena with just a longsword (pretty damn badass).

Where are you getting this from? Previous editions? I'm speaking to a hypothetical new edition, at this point the things a magic weapon or suit of armor could do haven't been set in stone yet. In fact I'd like to see a system similar to Earthdawn's for fighters where they can actually "level up" and customize their magic equipment through their own deeds, quests or through learning about it's history.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I'd be somewhat open to a system where the fighter (and to a lesser extent other warrior classes) could gain in power through equipment OR substitutes for it OR a mix of same. That's basically what Achilles is--he's a guy that didn't need magic armor because his "permanent magic skin armor" mixed with normal armor made him more powerful.

What you need to make this work is some kind of rationale and system where the warriors get access to this replacement stuff, while other characters mainly don't (with the rogue branch as a possible minor exception). Fighters are obviously at the head of the line. I suggest as a starting place that it be built as some kind of direct opposition to magical/supernatural abilities. That is, casting spells or having supernatural abilities makes this "equipment replacement" stuff not work as well for you by its very nature. (As an aside, you could also tie that to equipment, optionally, to reinforce why a +5 sword isn't the wizard's best friend.)

Any ideas along those lines? The obvious mechanical, mostly metagame one is that there is some kind of "essense" of destiny, character, fate, etc. that is unlocked as one levels. It is required to gain those magical and supernatural powers. And crucially, also to wield the high level magic items. If you don't have those, you can spend it all on getting dipped into magical rivers, learning impressive tricks from the greatest retired warriors of your age, etc. Of course when you implement that in a class system, it is going to look a lot like "special abilities at high levels". Perhaps it might be a guide to the character of the special abilities, though, and could be more clearly tied into magic equipment.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Where are you getting this from? Previous editions? I'm speaking to a hypothetical new edition, at this point the things a magic weapon or suit of armor could do haven't been set in stone yet. In fact I'd like to see a system similar to Earthdawn's for fighters where they can actually "level up" and customize their magic equipment through their own deeds, quests or through learning about it's history.

I have no objection to a theoretical new specialist class that does this. But I honestly think that if you told just about anyone that the thing that makes fighters special is not their fighting ability but their ability to unlock more use from magic items they'd look at you as if you were crazy.

 

[Underman]

Any ideas along those lines? The obvious mechanical, mostly metagame one is that there is some kind of "essense" of destiny, character, fate, etc. that is unlocked as one levels. It is required to gain those magical and supernatural powers. And crucially, also to wield the high level magic items. If you don't have those, you can spend it all on getting dipped into magical rivers, learning impressive tricks from the greatest retired warriors of your age, etc.

This probably works best on a campaign-specific basis, but I'd suggest that magic is unnatural, an abberation. Destiny is what happens when events unfold naturally. Magic "cheats" by circumventing the natural order. A true hero earns a place of higher fate/destiny according to the will of the gods, chi, extraordinary talent, etc. Wizards use unnatural magic instead, like the subpar athlete who wins the race on steroids or the poor student who beats the exam with stolen answers.

Not sure how that would apply on a more specific level. Perhaps you balance it across classes by making it a zero sum game. Fate and magic doesn't "stack". A fighter is purely a warrior of fate. A wizard is purely a spell caster. A fighter who learned a spell would lose some fate, so it evens out. Magic weapons and armor is problematic -- it's as if magic was converted into its antithesis of fate somehow.

Other musings: if hit points were divided into two pools as per the hit points thread, then fighters would have a wounds/fate, and wizards would have wounds/magic. Paladins are holy fate warriors. Clerics are holy magic warriors (they're technically cheating). And so forth.

 

[Imaro]

I have no objection to a theoretical new specialist class that does this. But I honestly think that if you told just about anyone that the thing that makes fighters special is not their fighting ability but their ability to unlock more use from magic items they'd look at you as if you were crazy.

Not magic items... magic weapons and magic armor. there would still be potions, scrolls, and even magic weapons and armor that other classes could use... what the fighter does is by being so skilled and focused on weapon use, combat, etc. he is able to somehow gain more from these weapons, armor, etc. than any other class. Consider it the classic "become one" with the weapon trope. This oneness allows him to tap into and use (possibly even create) new uses and abilities for the weapons and armor he uses.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I don't think you understand me... The fighter is still the penultimate warrior... and his skill and prowess very much still make a difference, since one would have to wield these weapons of power and use the enchanted armor correctly. So no, Random Town guard with a +5 magic sword still gets owned by Achilles with a +5 magic sword because his skill is still magnitudes higher than the Town Guard.

Still, you are making the point that a Fighter wouldn't be able to handle terrible dragons unless he has incredibly powerful magic items, and that is part of what I find unappealing. I know you are also arguing that such items could be a class feature for Fighters, but I don't like that either. Class features should tell the player what a character can do regardless of equipment, rather than simply give better equipment. I don't really want to overstate that preference or make it a hard-and-fast rule, but at the very least I don't want equipment bonuses to be given to the Fighter in order to make up for a deficit in the Fighter's own ability to be an interesting and effective class in its own right.

In other words, the class should give the Fighter the ability to use weapons better than anyone else, and the Fighter should be able to be an interesting and powerful class even in a game that doesn't use magic items. A Fighter shouldn't need magic items in order to fight dragons, since they should be able to get by just fine with ordinary gear. A fighter shouldn't need magic weapons to fight appropriate foes any more than a wizard should need a pile of scrolls and wands in order to do the same.

This is especially true for an upcoming edition which is promising flatter math... I'd hate to see scaling magic item bonus numbers in such a system where classes don't seem to have scaling attack bonuses or the like...