D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[Underman]

Consider it the classic "become one" with the weapon trope. This oneness allows him to tap into and use (possibly even create) new uses and abilities for the weapons and armor he uses.

Not to put words in your mouth, but perhaps like Excalibur was destined to be used by King Arthur; perhaps the sword wasn't legendary because it wasn't magic per se, rather it was fated to be used by a certain person for a certain time.

 

[Imaro]

I'd be somewhat open to a system where the fighter (and to a lesser extent other warrior classes) could gain in power through equipment OR substitutes for it OR a mix of same. That's basically what Achilles is--he's a guy that didn't need magic armor because his "permanent magic skin armor" mixed with normal armor made him more powerful.

What you need to make this work is some kind of rationale and system where the warriors get access to this replacement stuff, while other characters mainly don't (with the rogue branch as a possible minor exception). Fighters are obviously at the head of the line. I suggest as a starting place that it be built as some kind of direct opposition to magical/supernatural abilities. That is, casting spells or having supernatural abilities makes this "equipment replacement" stuff not work as well for you by its very nature. (As an aside, you could also tie that to equipment, optionally, to reinforce why a +5 sword isn't the wizard's best friend.)

Any ideas along those lines? The obvious mechanical, mostly metagame one is that there is some kind of "essense" of destiny, character, fate, etc. that is unlocked as one levels. It is required to gain those magical and supernatural powers. And crucially, also to wield the high level magic items. If you don't have those, you can spend it all on getting dipped into magical rivers, learning impressive tricks from the greatest retired warriors of your age, etc. Of course when you implement that in a class system, it is going to look a lot like "special abilities at high levels". Perhaps it might be a guide to the character of the special abilities, though, and could be more clearly tied into magic equipment.

What about simple enlightenment. The fighter sleeps, eats and breathes combat and as he levels it becomes more engrained in him on an almost natural level... like breathing. Through this "enlightenment" the fighter first begins to recognize uses for mundane weapons and armor that others may not have ever fathomed or have the skill to use in such ways...eventually he can do the same with magical armor and weapons (but even greater uses since there...well...magic.)... at higher levels he gets to the point where he can instinctually recognize and use powers in those weapons a man or woman (including sages and wizards) who wasn't as attuned to combat and it's ways would never even recognize the weapon possesed. Finally his combat abilties with weapons and armor are legend and thus he instinctually imprints his choice of powers upon magic weapons and enchanted armor through his very use of them.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

To the extent that magic equipment is the equalizer for the fighter, it has to be a lot like the Hero System "focus" rules versus the "independent" rules. In Hero, if you have equipment that is a focus, then it can be temporarily removed, but it is "part of your character"--and thus you can reasonably expect to have it most of the time, to get it back if stolen,etc. Versus, independent things can be found, traded, lost, etc. Easy come, easy go. (Not exactly in Hero, all the time, but certainly the implication is that harder it was to get, the harder it is to lose.)

So in this conception, a high level fighter doesn't have the ability "able to use great magic swords". He can do that already just having sword proficiency. What he does have is the ability to "call/find/receive/discover Excalibur and mostly hang onto it through the trials that follow."

That kind of game isn't for everyone, but if you aren't comfortable with that distinction, then you also aren't actually comfortable with magic equipment being the equalizer for warriors, and need to reconcile that somehow.

Edit: Please note some carefully chosen qualifications in this post.

 

[Imaro]

Not to put words in your mouth, but perhaps like Excalibur was destined to be used by King Arthur; perhaps the sword wasn't legendary because it wasn't magic per se, rather it was fated to be used by a certain person for a certain time.

The only reason I'm not big on the destiny idea is because it has a distinctly non-sword and sorcery feel to it... I don't think it would work very well in a conan-esque game of D&D.

 

[Underman]

The only reason I'm not big on the destiny idea is because it has a distinctly non-sword and sorcery feel to it... I don't think it would work very well in a conan-esque game of D&D.

Is magical equipment important in Conan? For example, Conan doesn't even wear armor and he's fine and he doesn't seem to want to put on armor as if armor would cramp his style. Just asking because I'm not too familiar with sword and sorcery, and it seems to be the opposite of D&D's fetish for equipment.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

As another relevant aside, I've thought that the BECMI/RC optional weapon mastery rules have a lot to contribute to this discussion--especially the way that higher mastery does not merely add plusses, but unlocks special abilities. It's possible that an extension of the weapon proficiency idea in 4E could be blended with that to produce something interesting. That is, make weapon proficiency tiered, but have the higher proficiencies be mostly about unlocking options rather than adding numbers. (You'd have some mild straight number bonuses through the first 1-3 proficiency levels, mainly for simulation purposes.)

Then steal an idea from Draqon Quest, and make "simple" weapons cap out on proficiency sooner. That is, a club might have proficiency score of 6, meaning you can put up to 6 levels of mastery into it. Meanwhile, a rapier or longsword is more like 10-12, because there is more to unlock. Magic weapons extend these limits, so that excess proficiency is hard to waste.

A mid-level wizard that has gone out of his way to get proficiency 3 in longswords would be happy to get a mid-level magic sword. It's better than having a mundane one. But he can't unlock as much of the potential of either the mundane or magical one, as a fighter with his proficiency 6 to 8 range at the same level.

That also moves all kinds of problematic simple/martial/exotic weapon classification issues into the proficiency system instead, where I think they are easier to handle. At proficiency 1, most weapons are roughly the same. They diverge as the character becomes more proficient.

 

[Imaro]

Is magical equipment important in Conan? For example, Conan doesn't even wear armor and he's fine and he doesn't seem to want to put on armor as if armor would cramp his style. Just asking because I'm not too familiar with sword and sorcery, and it seems to be the opposite of D&D's fetish for equipment.

Well I know Conan wears armor at times... but yeah, magic weapons and enchanted armor aren't a big part of his stories (I almost feel like historic weapons or ancestral weapons would give a more S&S vibe with minimal modification to the actual rules)... of course magic weapons are important to S&S heroes like Elric and Joire... Now that I think about it Conan's "magic weapon" seems to be his body and the feats he's able to pull off physically... so I guess perhaps an unarmed variant of the system might work... that would take some thought.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Finally his combat abilties with weapons and armor are legend and thus he instinctually imprints his choice of powers upon magic weapons and enchanted armor through his very use of them.

I think this is an interesting approach (it's mirrored somewhat in the Magus class in Pathfinder, who can temporarily add magic abilities to a particular weapon several times per day), and that it could work really well: at 15th-level, your fighter character can treat every magic weapon as if it had the vorpal property, or he can change a weapon between a flameblade and an icingdeath, ferinstance.

On the other hand, I suspect it would not work for a lot of people.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

The only reason I'm not big on the destiny idea is because it has a distinctly non-sword and sorcery feel to it... I don't think it would work very well in a conan-esque game of D&D.

That's the $64,000 question. The underlying mechanic has to support a range of flavoring, such that it can be destiny in one game, but something different in other games. I think you can read Conan as a destiny example, though I can also see cases made for other readings. That's why it is a playstyle thing.

Ideally, the flavoring would imply certain limits on the mechanic, but the mechanic would be broad enough to still have plenty left to pick from. That is, if you are playing Conan as "luck and the cynical inattention of the gods," then Conan ain't getting dipped in no magic river at birth. OTOH, his uncanny glare and reflexes from his early formative career is very much developed into a "heroic ability" later on, which would fit that playstyle.

 

[Imaro]

I think this is an interesting approach (it's mirrored somewhat in the Magus class in Pathfinder, who can temporarily add magic abilities to a particular weapon several times per day), and that it could work really well: at 15th-level, your fighter character can treat every magic weapon as if it had the vorpal property, or he can change a weapon between a flameblade and an icingdeath, ferinstance.

On the other hand, I suspect it would not work for a lot of people.

Why do you think it wouldn't work for alot of people?