D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[pemerton]

I think this misses the point that these categories have actual rules, limitations, etc. attached to them (admittedly minimal in 4e but that doesn't have to be the case in 5e) in the game and thus I think it is pretty important that the fighter's power source be defined in a mechanical sense... just like other classes powers are. Why shouldn't my "demigod" fighter get the benefits and limitations of the divine and martial power sources... while my high level "enlightened" fighter might have the psionic and martial power sources? These mechanical differences give weight to the fiction.

I'm not sure what you have in mind for 4e - some (not all) power blocks have a source keyword, but many class abilities don't. Overall, power source doesn't seem to play a big mechanical role other than mediating the interaction of some feats and other abilities that deal with enhancing or recharging. I certainly don't think we're obliged to think of a STR cleric or paladin as fighting very differently from a fighter, even though one is making Divine and the other Martial weapon attacks.

But if, in D&Dnext, these things are mechanically more important, than by all means stick labels on the fighter's abilities, or let the player choose the label s/he prefers. I don't quite see how this would be the sticking point for more mythic fighter abilities, unless one (a) requires fighters to be purely martial, and (b) denies that martial can ever encompass mythic.

 

[Underman]

But if, in D&Dnext, these things are mechanically more important, than by all means stick labels on the fighter's abilities, or let the player choose the label s/he prefers.

That seems doable in theory, just like the D&D Next team suggested tagging the Warlord as a "rare' class; not sure that "rare' is the most appropriate term, but it emphasizes to the forefront that not every mechanic is ideal for every campaign.

I also like the idea of using level caps to differentiate mythic from traditional fighters, but does a mythic/anime fighter begin at level 1 alongside a traditional fighter and they progress in parallel until the more mundane fighter stops at level 10 or 20 and the other fighter takes off like a rocket to mythic/anime land? Just wondering. Because theoretically, a low-level mythic fighter can exist in a world of talking animals and evil words and mythic villians and other elements of fable and folklore.

So is mythic really attached to level, or is more truly attached to subclasses (or builds) and the appropriate selection of powers?

I don't quite see how this would be the sticking point for more mythic fighter abilities, unless one (a) requires fighters to be purely martial, and (b) denies that martial can ever encompass mythic.

If "mythic" means dream logic, then speaking only for myself, I don't have a problem with mythic as long as the rest of the campaign is somewhat consistently mythic in tone (talking animals don't raise an eyebrow, the villian does so-and-so just because for no rational reason, etc.).

Else if "mythic" means super-natural abilities, then for me, martial can compellingly encompass mythic as long as a) there's some honest attempt at suspension of disbelief, and b) there is a feedback loop from the fiction to mechanics, such that the chosen fiction (a Cimmerian Blood barbarian, a demigod fighter, a drug-infused warrior, etc.) matters in mechanical terms.

 

[Someone]

And, at least in principle, there's no reason why the "rules module" format cannot do that. Execution remains to be seen, of course.

I don't know, I've seen a quite wide divide at things that are very basic, and I'm not even talking about if a fighter jumping 10 meters through non-supernatural, if unusual means or what resource system should spellcasters use, but if the ruleset should be more gamist or simulationist (nobody seems to argue for a more narrativist approach)

To put an example there are people who likes the fact that in 3e dragons have a 1d12 hit die because they are very tough. Others like the fact that 4e abstracts that and just gives the monster the stats it needs, and then tries to pay some service to the fluff with power names and whatnot. Some people find it only one step below repugnant and find 3e's approach aesthetically pleasant, others find the simulationist approach unnecessarily convoluted or problematic (because they have no problem divorcing game stats which purely dictate how the monster interacts with the PCs in skirmish combat with the in-game monster and how it lives and breathes) and like the ease and balance they bring.

I don't see how these can be made modules short of rewriting each core rulebook two or three times.

 

[Imaro]

I'm not sure what you have in mind for 4e - some (not all) power blocks have a source keyword, but many class abilities don't. Overall, power source doesn't seem to play a big mechanical role other than mediating the interaction of some feats and other abilities that deal with enhancing or recharging. I certainly don't think we're obliged to think of a STR cleric or paladin as fighting very differently from a fighter, even though one is making Divine and the other Martial weapon attacks.

Well from the mechanical side I think you've already touched on why some type of implementation of mechanics to differntiate power source, type, or whatever would be useful... though again as I already admitted, actual mechanical effect was minimal in 4e (and I'm not going to say whether this was or wasn't an objectively good thing).

I think that if there are things in the game that affect divine power specifically... then it should affect a STR cleric or paladin (or even the "demi-god mythic fighter") but not a pure fighter (or the "enlightened" fighter)... and this of course will shape how one character acts compared to another in different situations...IMO, of course.

But if, in D&Dnext, these things are mechanically more important, than by all means stick labels on the fighter's abilities, or let the player choose the label s/he prefers. I don't quite see how this would be the sticking point for more mythic fighter abilities, unless one (a) requires fighters to be purely martial, and (b) denies that martial can ever encompass mythic.

I don't think anyone is arguing it as a "sticking" point... just another facet that needs to be thought about and addressed if something like the mythic fighter is implelemnted. Also, as I said earlier, I don't think it's as cut as dry as you presented it where power source has no (or very little) effect on the thematic or emotional concerns of a character.

 

[pemerton]

there are people who likes the fact that in 3e dragons have a 1d12 hit die because they are very tough.

Chalk me up as someone who doesn't really get this. I mean, what is the effect of giving d12 HD? It means more hp per BAB bonus (although that is complicated by the varying rates of BAB progression). But it also means fewer doses of CON bonus per HD-generated hit point. What exactly is this complicated, and somewhat opaque, mechanical construct actually simulating?

I certainly find the 4e approach easier: it has the hit points it needs to be appropriately tough, and level (plus status, as standard, elite or solo) is assigned to reflect that toughness.

 

[Remathilis]

Else if "mythic" means super-natural abilities, then for me, martial can compellingly encompass mythic as long as a) there's some honest attempt at suspension of disbelief, and b) there is a feedback loop from the fiction to mechanics, such that the chosen fiction (a Cimmerian Blood barbarian, a demigod fighter, a drug-infused warrior, etc.) matters in mechanical terms.

That's my point. I don't bat an eyelash at barbarian's raging (primal spirits) or monk's killing with a touch (mystic ki), a psionic's mind blast (psionic) or even a paladin's smite (divine power), but even the most elite, trained and heroic mortal man needs some force beyond himself (even if its some internal force like psionics or ki) to break the bounds of mortality and be mythic.

If we are going to give the fighter the ability to break those bonds, we need to determine the fictional reason why. Blood of the Dragon, quasi-divine bloodline, Spice-addict, the Force, I don't care. Just don't tell he is now 10th level and transcended mortality. That is lazy and lame.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Maybe the Fighter needs Paragon Pathes that explain where he gets his "mythic" powers. I would like people to have different options, since a single one won't cut it.

• Artifact Master: The Fighter unlocks supernatural abilities from a magic item.
• Martial Magic: The Fighter discovers scrolls explaining fighting techniques that blend magic and martial arts.
• Bath in Dragonblood: Bathing in the blood of a dragon he killed himself, the Fighter acquires unique magical gifts, gaining him parts of a dragon's fighting prowess.
• Divine Blood: The fighter discovered his divine heritage and taps into it.
• Divine Champion: Devoting his life to a god (or the gods), the Fighter gains supernatural powers.
• Fey Warrior: Elves or Gnomes unlock their fey abilities and use them to augment their combat abilities.
• Primal Warrior: The Fighter lets nature's power flow through him.
• Dark Pact: The Fighter enters a pact with a demon, devil or mage to gain supernatural powers.

 

[Shadeydm]

Maybe the Fighter needs Paragon Pathes that explain where he gets his "mythic" powers. I would like people to have different options, since a single one won't cut it.

• Artifact Master: The Fighter unlocks supernatural abilities from a magic item.
• Martial Magic: The Fighter discovers scrolls explaining fighting techniques that blend magic and martial arts.
• Bath in Dragonblood: Bathing in the blood of a dragon he killed himself, the Fighter acquires unique magical gifts, gaining him parts of a dragon's fighting prowess.
• Divine Blood: The fighter discovered his divine heritage and taps into it.
• Divine Champion: Devoting his life to a god (or the gods), the Fighter gains supernatural powers.
• Fey Warrior: Elves or Gnomes unlock their fey abilities and use them to augment their combat abilities.
• Primal Warrior: The Fighter lets nature's power flow through him.
• Dark Pact: The Fighter enters a pact with a demon, devil or mage to gain supernatural powers.

Those sound like fun options for that playstyle.

 

[Manbearcat]

That's my point. I don't bat an eyelash at barbarian's raging (primal spirits) or monk's killing with a touch (mystic ki), a psionic's mind blast (psionic) or even a paladin's smite (divine power), but even the most elite, trained and heroic mortal man needs some force beyond himself (even if its some internal force like psionics or ki) to break the bounds of mortality and be mythic.

If we are going to give the fighter the ability to break those bonds, we need to determine the fictional reason why. Blood of the Dragon, quasi-divine bloodline, Spice-addict, the Force, I don't care. Just don't tell he is now 10th level and transcended mortality. That is lazy and lame.

In applying this to the thread topic:

- I think for some what you say is true. There is a need. Measurable Force > Applied to Object > Kinetic Energy Transfer > Predictable Outcomes/Limits Consistent With Preconception.

- I think for some what you say is not true. There is no need. Professional athletes in the real world exhibit all manner of dexterity, agility, speed, coordination, and strength that vastly exceeds that of the common man. In our world, a singular, quantum particle accelerated through an impermeable filter with two open slots inexplicably passes through both slots simultaneously (Quantum Mechanics...or High Arcana). Perhaps then, its not so strange that through extraordinary martial conditioning, will, genetic predisposition, there is an even higher level of access to energy/kinesis and/or the ability to bypass or overcome drag, inertia, gravity, friction in a fantasy world where some form of arcane conduit permeates the atmosphere or space/time (whatever it is), divine beings grant miracles and non-supernatural, gigantic creatures can fly from a standstill without the requisite thrust or forward momentum necessary to create and sustain lift despite their absurd weight and their inefficient forms creating greater form/frictional drag.

- I think for some what you say is not true. There is no need. Its fiction first and they are not attempting to model reality. They are attempting to model heroes of legend and the stories that comprise their legacy and all other considerations are secondary. And by secondary I mean non-existent.

Getting all of these folks together will be a neat trick. Lets make it happen WotC.

 

[Remathilis]

Getting all of these folks together will be a neat trick. Lets make it happen WotC.

It would be actually quite easy to do, if done right. All you need is another warrior (and perhaps rogue) class ala Book of 9 Swords. Compare the fighter to the warblade for example. The latter is clearly the near mythic hero some people want, while the 3e fighter falls much into the mundane realm others want. It can't be THAT hard to put such a class as a reworked warblade into a supplement book again? Assuming they can work out the balance (unlike in 3e) problems, a mythic warrior becomes nothing more than a monk of a different stripe; calling on some force to do things more wondrous than the normal man can. Its a simple, and daresay, modular way to appease both camps, even at the same table.

Side Note: There are some people who will comment about class bloat. To you I have to say "tough". I see no problem with creating a class of warriors with supernatural abilities and making them separate from normal fighters. Barbarians and monks already fall into this realm, and you can easily argue paladins and rangers do too. What's one more to the pile?