What to do about the 15-minute work day?

[Elf Witch]

Without railroading, how can the DM force you to leave your base?*

And once you get mid-level transportation magic, how can he stop you from going to-and-fro?

* Not considering, of course, the metagame, "Hey, guys - I'd like to run an adventure where you travel to [etc.] ..." method.

He can't force you to leave you base you can sit there all nice and snug while the bad guys have free reign over the world. Or he can say since you guys don't want to play anymore today lets wrap the game up.

So you clear out an area of the dungeon and teleport home to your bed I hope you are ready to clear out that level again because your handy work has been discovered and now they are ready for you.

The king hired you to rescue his daughter instead of paying the ransom but instead of continuing on you teleport home to sleep in a comfy bed. Meanwhile your activities have been discovered and the bad guys realize they king does not intend to pay so he sends the king his daughter's head. Now the king has a bounty on your heads.

 

[Elf Witch]

I think the best way to handle this is mainly advice and for those who want them optional rules for handling resources.

 

[Elf Witch]

I like to set goals for my PCs instead of having the DM set them. If I want to tame the wilderness and turn my little fort into a tower that rains doom and despair across the land, then that's what the game is going to be about. I doubt that I'd always be able to retreat (or even that I'd achieve that goal!), but I want that option to exist if there's a reasonable chance that it could exist.

I don't mind the 15-minute adventuring day, but I want it to be a real choice. That means that I have to balance that option against my other options. I don't want resting to always be the best option available, but I do want it to be an option.

I expect a game that contains limited resources and the ability to refresh them to have a balance between refreshing those resources and going on without them. Or at least help to provide that balance.

It sort of sounds like you are saying the DM is your bitch.

What if they DM is planning on running nothing but city encounters or an Adventure Path that takes place on the sea?

As a DM my fun comes in planning what is going on in the world and how the world reacts to what the PCs do.

I am not saying I won't work with the PCs to help reach their goals if those goals can be fit into the campaign I am running.

But it is a two way street and there are more than just you at the table.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

So you clear out an area of the dungeon and teleport home to your bed I hope you are ready to clear out that level again because your handy work has been discovered and now they are ready for you.

Funnily enough, I could see this working the other way with my PCs. They smash the dungeon with shock and awe, before retreating back to safety while magically watching the area. A tribe of dungeon denizens seeing that they are "outmatched" organise an evacuation plan over the next couple of days taking the dungeon's McGuffin with them. The PCs now having rested and at full resources scry teleport attack the isolated tribal leader taking his McGuffin with minimal effort before returning to the dungeon to "pick up the coppers".

I suppose my point is, sometimes it does not make sense that a dungeon is going to restock itself within anywhere near the speedy timeframe that the PCs can. Sometimes the measures you take to combat the 5MW are just as contrived as the ones leading to the 5MW in the first place and unfortunately to maintain a believable ecology, you are going to end up encouraging the 5MW as many times as discouraging it.

This is why I would like to see this addressed at a mechanical level, so it is not left to the DM to always have to push and pull the levers.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Griego]

I had to shake my head at this come on comparing game rules to hunger.

Maybe it was a bit heavy-handed, but only thing I could think of on the spur of the moment.

You realize that there are people out there who have issues with some aspect of the game if you try and fix everything that some people complain about you end up with a game no one really wants to play.

Now now, let's not stray into straw man territory here. Fixing certain problems does not mean the game automatically becomes unplayable. There may be a workable solution that suits a lot of peoples' tastes and playstyles. And this is a problem that merits working on, judging by the amount of discussion it gets.

For what it's worth, I think the solution could be had in both mechanics and advice. As far as mechanics go, I dunno what would be best. Milestones seem like a step in the right direction. But as for advice, the DM's Guide could include exhortations not to put things like dragons magically disguised as kobolds in the dungeon too often, because the players' likely response would be to go nuclear on everything they encounter, because at that point you never know.

 

[LostSoul]

It sort of sounds like you are saying the DM is your bitch.

Okay.

What if they DM is planning on running nothing but city encounters or an Adventure Path that takes place on the sea?

As a DM my fun comes in planning what is going on in the world and how the world reacts to what the PCs do.

I am not saying I won't work with the PCs to help reach their goals if those goals can be fit into the campaign I am running.

But it is a two way street and there are more than just you at the table.

I tailor my goal to the campaign. In a city, maybe my goal would be to take over the thieves guild, or to set up a trade route with the help of permanent teleport circles. I'd present the rest of the group with my goal and see if it would work; if not, I'll come up with a new one.

I am not interested in playing through an Adventure Path. Neither am I interested in playing through a DM's pre-plotted campaign - though that's a complicated topic only partially relevant to this discussion. (Not that you were talking about pre-plotted campaigns; I just want to clarify what sort of game I enjoy.) For example, I don't mind a game with a strong initial situation - in fact, I like that, it gives me some guidance in character creation - but I don't want the DM to have any preference as to how the campaign will play out.

 

[Hussar]

Herreman, I really like your idea of letting wizards (or any Vancian Caster for that matter) regain spells after resting for a short while.

But, doesn't that basically make every caster an "encounter" caster? If you are going to go this way, why not go all the way and back to AEDU?

 

[Raith5]

I dont think this problem is a general issue for a whole edition. There has been no 15 minute workday problem at any point in my 4th campaign (levels 1-18) but it was a significant problem in lowish 3rd ed campaign (especially levels 1-5) but higher levels of 3rd it was not a problem.

As such I favor mechanics that give some form of encounter resources or a recharge mechanism. I also like the idea that the mechnics can give an incentive to press on - maybe some from of recharging of power per milestone or encounter.

I also think that some form of second wind/self healing mechanic would solve a lot of these problems because a lack of healing magic was the core problem for my group in 3rd.

 

[Lanefan]

I tailor my goal to the campaign. In a city, maybe my goal would be to take over the thieves guild, or to set up a trade route with the help of permanent teleport circles. I'd present the rest of the group with my goal and see if it would work; if not, I'll come up with a new one.

Problem is, the DM has goals too - be it a story she wants to tell, an adventure module she wants to run, whatever - that might not have much to do with your goal of setting up a teleport network nor the equally-non-adventuring goals of the other players/PCs.

Which, oddly enough, tangentially impacts the topic at hand: not only is there the 15-minute workday in the field, there can also be the 15-minute session at the table. By that, I mean you've got only a short time where everyone is on the same page and actually getting on with some adventuring as opposed to pursuing their own non-adventuring projects.

For example, I don't mind a game with a strong initial situation - in fact, I like that, it gives me some guidance in character creation - but I don't want the DM to have any preference as to how the campaign will play out.

Why not? It's her campaign too...

As for the original topic, I can offer only 5 words: wandering monsters are your friend. Yes, both you and your players might get bored senseless playing out all the little combats that come up when wanderers stumble on the party; never mind that any interruption to the rest period means nothing can be recovered next morning (no spells, no h.p., etc.) - eventually the players learn to manage their resources and keep going.

Conversely, when they do keep going to the point of serious risk it's never a bad idea to back off on the wanderers a bit and let them rest...

Lanefan

 

[LostSoul]

Problem is, the DM has goals too - be it a story she wants to tell, an adventure module she wants to run, whatever - that might not have much to do with your goal of setting up a teleport network nor the equally-non-adventuring goals of the other players/PCs.

I don't want to experience the DM's story, so I don't play in those games. Adventure modules are okay as long as the outcome isn't pre-planned. That's why I am not interested in Adventure Paths.

Creating a network of teleport circles seems like an adventuring goal: you need XP and GP in order to do it, and that means adventure... eventually to other cities, which is a nice way to add depth to the city campaign.

Why not? It's her campaign too...

I want my choices to have an influence on how the situation unfolds. If the DM wants the situation to unfold in a certain way - and, I guess, takes steps to ensure that happens - then my choices aren't influencing the situation and there's not much point in me playing. I see that as her campaign instead of our campaign.