What to do about the 15-minute work day?

[Tony Vargas]

I think it can impose one play style and basically say that your play style is not the way we the designers feel you should play.

That's exactly what the last L&L article did. It declared that there was one right way to play D&D - a certain 'crystal clear' number of rounds per adventuring day that the DM was going to have to enforce one way or another (with more or longer encounters).

That was one big flaw of 4E to me that I felt it supported only a narrow margin of play styles.

I think that 'feeling of being supported' varies. I feel a game supports a play style if I can play in that style without needing to change rules to avoid problems. When I hear someone objecting to the balanced approach 4e took as "not supporting" some play style, and ask for and actually get (which is rare) some clarification, it comes down to the system not rewarding that style over others.

I think 5e, which is supposed to 'support' many different styles, needs to avoid the latter sense of 'support.' 'Support' for a play style should not be rewarding that style disproportionately or punishing other styles - it should simply be allowing that style without needing to distort the game (mechanics or campaign).

I think the way to avoid this in 5E is to give options but also advice on how to tailor the rules to your play style.

While rules fixes are one way to 'support' multiple styles in the "reward" sense - one at a time, assuming DMs or groups willing to do the requisite re-design work - they don't support multiple styles at the same table or in organized play.

An ideal solution might be a style-neutral 'core' that doesn't force or reward any style, and could be a fair basis for more open forms of organized play, /and/ a variety of modules and rules-adjustment advice to allow DMs to choose a style of play and encourage their players to adopt it using mechanical rewards and punishments.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Question:
Doesn't mechanically preventing and/or limiting the 15-minute workday impose a playstyle on the game?

Not meaning to be trite, but any mechanic imposes an influence on playstyle, the onlynquestionnisnhow much.

Isn't that implying to players that their style of game is unacceptable?

I hadn't thought about it, but I think you're right.

 

[CleverNickName]

Happened to me once, a while back. I just made it clear that they had just gotten up and weren't tired, so they would not be able to sleep. And none of them had any spells for a restful sleep, either. Solved the issue quickly.

4e does that explicitly - you can't benefit from an extended rest until at least 12 hours after your last one - and 3e effectively enforced it for divine casters, who don't get their spells back immediately after resting, but must instead meditate at a specific time of day.

However, this often just results in the players taking 24 hours off to rest instead of 8.

The thing that troubled me about the whole deal was that this was the first time the topic had ever come up at my table with this gaming group. Ever. And when it did, the player mentioned it by name. I think at least one of them has been cruising the internet forums and taking notes on how to exploit certain parts of the game. *sigh*

It didn't come up at our game this weekend, so maybe that was the last we've heard of it.

 

[mlund]

The thing that troubled me about the whole deal was that this was the first time the topic had ever come up at my table with this gaming group. Ever. And when it did, the player mentioned it by name. I think at least one of them has been cruising the internet forums and taking notes on how to exploit certain parts of the game. *sigh*

Sorry, but I can't help but remember discussions over a decade ago about how fun and balanced a game Magic: the Gathering was until those rotten kids started copying good decks off the Internet.

- Marty Lund

 

[pemerton]

Sorry, but I can't help but remember discussions over a decade ago about how fun and balanced a game Magic: the Gathering was until those rotten kids started copying good decks off the Internet.

The game doesn't seem very robust if it depends upon ignorance of the possible mechanical options and scope for it to work.

 

[Lanefan]

The game doesn't seem very robust if it depends upon ignorance of the possible mechanical options and scope for it to work.

There's a big difference in figuring something out for yourself or just reading how someone else did it. And if you/your group never figure out some mechanical option, what's the difference.

In this way at least, the internet has taken some of the fun out of complex games like M:tG and D&D.

Lanefan

 

[Zustiur]

Or if the system simply didn't encourage the Nova-Rest-Nova thing in the first place, of course.

I can't imagine a system with recoverable resources that doesn't encourage that. It's a sensible tactic if there are no other considerations.

 

[BlueBlackRed]

Simple mechanic that seems to not get used much anymore: If the party rests in an unsafe place, roll for random encounters which interrupts their rest.

Though the length of combats certainly can make that distasteful in recent editions.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I can't imagine a system with recoverable resources that doesn't encourage that. It's a sensible tactic if there are no other considerations.

Automatic recovery after each encounter wouldn't encourage additional resting, but that's not really saying much. Recovery not linked to resting or some other player-decided (however DM-discouraged) mechanism would also do the trick. For instance, if recovery happened at a milestone, chapter, or other story-based point chosen by the DM.

OTOH, if player-timed recovery of resources is deemed desirable, then, to avoid class imbalances, it would make sense to give all classes comparable resource distributions - very different resources, perhaps, but comparable in how many and how often/easily they're recovered.

 

[Derren]

I can't imagine a system with recoverable resources that doesn't encourage that. It's a sensible tactic if there are no other considerations.

Exactly. But instead of adding "other considerations" to the adventure, people are demanding mechanical and most often gamist obstacles.