D&D 5E What is most important to you for 5e?

Greg K

Legend
For myself, I would not allow that progression with levels in different classes. From my perspective, the classes are not something you can just take. The package of abilities represent years of training for a starting character- even a fighter learning to utilize all those weapons proficiently takes a significant amount of time.. Once adventuring begins, there would need to be significant amount of downtime so characters can't be wandering off adventuring (I use the training variant in the DMG, but the times are longer).

My own preference as a DM for those types of backgrounds would using be, if using 3e a combination of UA style class variants (discussed briefly in the PHB and DMG), 3.0 0/0 multiclassing at first level, and/or a third party class to help get close to the concept at first level.

For the ex thief, I would tell the player to
a) use the Martial Rogue UA variant ( a rogue that gives up sneak attack for bonus feats) and Paladin multiclass at first level;
b) I might create a Paladin variant for the thieving while the fighter training would be covered under Paladin training and weapons- use your starting feat and take a feat on the fighters list; or
c) some combination of the above

This would cover the character up to the point the adventure begins. Any probation period would be factored in during the paladin training. At most, the character would have two classes at the start and either way the background elements are covered up to the start of play.

Depending upon the campaign setting, I might ease the training restriction on multiclassing to cleric since the Paladin is a divine class. Then again, I might not if the campaign setting there are rituals and other things that need to be learned to become a "priest" while Paladin is simply a reward for faith or calling from deity in which case the Paladin goes out of game for a period and can come back later.

For your mystic, I would, probably, tell the player to take the OA Shaman. The class can fight unarmed and gets spells. If necessary, I would talk with the player and create a tailored spell list variant in the DMG would be employed. It is all done with one class.

Again, just my own take for when I run.

Part of my approach is my view to mechanics. To me, a level is not a definite piece of a character - it is just a package of abilities for the character. You get feats, you get ability score increases, you get levels.

Think of this character (a concept I've played). Son of a Noble in a line of Paladins - but he is out with his parents on a trip (he's about 8). They all get killed, and he barely escapes - and tramautized ends up in a city as a classic dickensian street thief. Then someone recognises him, and brings him to the temple - with his background he belonds in the temple to be a paladin, but because of his actions, he needs probation. So he is a fighter for a while, then he wins probation, and becomes a paladin. After gaining paladin spells, he realizes his true calling is in serving his god as a priest.

The character story arc is pretty standard (redeemed thief) - all of the choices are made in character, not for power gaming, or because of plot reasons (the probationary period) - it is completely organic with the character and his experiences. Say he spends 2 levels in each class until Cleric - that makes him a 7th level character as a first level cleric.

Why should someone with that level of character growth, who's beliefs and backgrounds should be penalized because the course of the character happens to fall across 4 classes.


Perhaps you have a character idea of a "Mysitc" - start of with physical training (Monk) and after mastering physical abilities (say monk at 5th or 6th) you move into even more mystical realms (and become a Sorcerer or Psion) of the "mytic path." That is only two, but very basic - the character is not a Monk, nor a Sorcerer or Psion - he is a "Mystic" as a character type - one which the player models by having multiple classes.

The first case uses classes as normally seen - an order or oginization for each class as a social role. The second, class levels are no more than a tool used to create the mystic.

I don't see why that would be bad. :D

Especially with "each class has it's own thing that no one can do better" - being able to freely multiclass keeps that from being a straightjacket -

Another thing I'd want from 5th - no formal roles stated and adventures set up that you don't have to cover all roles (fighter, cleric, thief, wizard) to complete - all fighter and all wizard parties are just as effective (if different) than a mixed group.
 

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Libramarian

Adventurer
A DMG that takes the idea of challenging the player rather than the character seriously. I don't think anyone on the current design team is capable of writing it though. I was hoping Monte Cook would be the primary author of the DMG, but he's gone now of course. Maybe if they tap a really old school guy like Frank Mentzer or Rob Kuntz for consultation.
 

For myself, I would not allow that progression with levels in different classes. From my perspective, the classes are not something you can just take.

<SNIP>

Again, just my own take for when I run.

Perfectly valid take. :D

I just come at it as a different position. I figure base structure should be like yours in Next, but with solid multiclassing rules, that allows something like how I envision it in a module.


Part of it is my game choices. I tend to play point based games where there are no classes and such, and the abilities are gained to reinforce character concept and character growth - rather than a character being defined by his abilities and role. So whenI play D&D I approach it that way. And while I don't want to see it core, I'd like to see Next support that approach. 3.x/Pathfinder really does just by dropping Multiclass penalties.

And yeah - the Unearthed Aracana options were great - the Mystic was bascially a Gestalt Monk/Sorcerer but all of her sorcerer spells were colored and flavored as Ch'i abilities (and I made sure to limit my spell choices to things that fit). So at 5th level we had the Shu-Do-Ken! Fireball. :D

The thing that my approach allows (and I understand that not everyone is like this) that by using multiclassing and/or gestalt you can take a player's unique concept and "create" a new class by just multi-classing.

In a modular game the option to do that, I think, would be a strength.
 

Greg K

Legend
Perfectly valid take. :D

I just come at it as a different position. I figure base structure should be like yours in Next, but with solid multiclassing rules, that allows something like how I envision it in a module.


Part of it is my game choices. I tend to play point based games where there are no classes and such, and the abilities are gained to reinforce character concept and character growth - rather than a character being defined by his abilities and role. So whenI play D&D I approach it that way. And while I don't want to see it core, I'd like to see Next support that approach. 3.x/Pathfinder really does just by dropping Multiclass penalties.
Yeah, the only class based games I play are 3e and True20. My main systems are point based. I hate the hoop jumping of multiclass for concepts or typical fantasy archetypes that seem reasonable at the start. That is why I try hard to help players with the class variants, 3rd party classes, etc. to help make it work at the start provided

a) it makes sense in the campaign world
b) they are not getting out of hand with my with background For example, My characer was born with the bloodline of a sorcerer and trained with the bodyguard of my merchant father. Next, he travelled with his merchant father and learned how to rage while staying with the barbarins. After that, he trained the wizards of the Great Academy where learned arcane mage. Finally, he trained with the monks at the temple. Meanwhile the character is only first level :erm:

And yeah - the Unearthed Aracana options were great - the Mystic was bascially a Gestalt Monk/Sorcerer but all of her sorcerer spells were colored and flavored as Ch'i abilities (and I made sure to limit my spell choices to things that fit). So at 5th level we had the Shu-Do-Ken! Fireball. :D

This is why I like the OA Shaman with the DMG tailored spell list variant. Much cleaner in my opinion. :D
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Your character is fighting a dragon, but we want to challenge /you/, the player. So take this pen-knife and kill that alligator in my swimming pool.
Humour aside, there are quite legitimate ways of having the game challenge a player; none of them physical. Puzzles, riddles, etc. all challenge the player to a) think like the character and b) solve them. Social situations can similarly challenge players quite well.

But combat as a player challenge? Not so much, except for in-game strategy and tactics.

Lan-"a pen-knife does d3-1 damage, right?"-efan
 



Humour aside, there are quite legitimate ways of having the game challenge a player; none of them physical. Puzzles, riddles, etc. all challenge the player to a) think like the character and b) solve them. Social situations can similarly challenge players quite well.

But combat as a player challenge? Not so much, except for in-game strategy and tactics.

Lan-"a pen-knife does d3-1 damage, right?"-efan
Riddles as player challenge? Not so much, except for word association skills.

I think in-game strategy and tactics are just as valid as player challenge as riddles or puzzles. And for me personally, hey are much more fun. I really dislike most riddles or puzzles. I can enjoy logical puzzles, that can be solved logically, including stuff like "whodunnits". But riddles and many puzzles seem to rely more on the "gotcha" effect - throw everything you got at the question and see what sticks and what does not.
 

Emerikol

Adventurer
Your character is fighting a dragon, but we want to challenge /you/, the player. So take this pen-knife and kill that alligator in my swimming pool.

Funny. I hope you jest. Otherwise I'll have to accuse you of grossly misinterpreting what the guy said.

Here's what I think he meant...
1. Tactics matter on the combat battle field. Tactical choices are made by the player (acting as the character of course) and use player skill. An 18 intelligence doesn't allow you to ask the DM to move your character.

2. Preparation. You can't just say to the DM - hey I'm smart so I take whatever I'm gonna need. As DM I would respond - you are too smart to try something silly like that. Fighting that dragon you mention is going to perhaps take some additional preparation beyond normal equipment etc...

3. Riddles, puzzles, clues, mysteries, etc... "I solve riddle roll my intelligence" isn't going to work.

4. Roleplaying. The player voices out his words and actions BEFORE rolling. Or doesn't even roll at all in the more extreme cases.

Thats just a few examples.
 

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