Flying Fighters and Other Stories of Dependence, Independence and Interdependence

[pemerton]

But clerics are primarily a defensive and buffing class rather than the offence of a fighter or wizard.

<snip>

a 7th level cleric? Hits no harder than a 1st level 1 (although he gains something like +4 to hit), doesn't have the same line in save or die spells, and won't be able to cast on the battle line. He just sounds scary and has quite a lot of hit points.

So the "solo" of 1st ed?

 

[Steely_Dan]

So the "solo" of 1st ed?

That would be the Assassin I have been DMing off-and-on for 25 years.

 

[Hussar]

You got several things wrong.

1) The DMPC M-U is for fighting the Naga, not the Cleric-7. The only help you get vs the Cleric-7 is an unarmed girl in a cage!

2) If you create an NPC M-U 1 using the rules for PCs in the 1e DMG, he's very unlikely to roll Sleep on the random spell table. If you 'cheat' and just give him the deadliest spell in the book, then yes of course he'd have a good chance to TPK an Elf-less group.

Why wouldn't you have the wizard with you when you fight the cleric? You have to defeat the cleric before you can meet the Naga and you have to bring the wizard into the dungeon with you.

And, to answer 2. Why would I use rules for creating PC's to create an NPC? Do you honestly give all of your casters random spells when you played AD&D? That would explain why you would think MU's are chumps I suppose. Granted NONE of the modules work like this, but, I suppose you could do it.

 

[TwoSix]

Actually, fighter vs wizard is a distraction most of the time. There are two sets of comparisons that matter and that seem to always be missed from these debates. If the wizard doesn't need the fighter you didn't just drive past the stop signal - but you've just gone through the wall, driven over one cow, and finally come to a stop by driving into a charging bull.

The magic vs mundane class comparisoms that are obvious are:

1: Fighter vs Cleric.
2: Wizard vs Rogue.

This needs to be its own thread.

 

[S'mon]

Why wouldn't you have the wizard with you when you fight the cleric? You have to defeat the cleric before you can meet the Naga and you have to bring the wizard into the dungeon with you.

And, to answer 2. Why would I use rules for creating PC's to create an NPC? Do you honestly give all of your casters random spells when you played AD&D? That would explain why you would think MU's are chumps I suppose. Granted NONE of the modules work like this, but, I suppose you could do it.

#1 AIR in the normal course of events a party won't have the M-U 7 with them yet when they fight the Clr-7.

#2 You either use the same creation rules you use for PCs, or you assign the M-U NPC a 'fair' spell that is dangerous but not overwhelming (that's usually how modules do it I think), or else you're being really unfair to the PCs. If you ignore the DMG and let PC M-U 1s pick their spells freely then it'd be fair, but deadly, to arbitrarily assign NPC M-U 1s 'sleep' or 'charm person', likewise.

Rem that Elves are effectively immune, though!

 

[Hussar]

[URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 [/URL] AIR in the normal course of events a party won't have the M-U 7 with them yet when they fight the Clr-7.

[URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2]#2 [/URL] You either use the same creation rules you use for PCs, or you assign the M-U NPC a 'fair' spell that is dangerous but not overwhelming (that's usually how modules do it I think), or else you're being really unfair to the PCs. If you ignore the DMG and let PC M-U 1s pick their spells freely then it'd be fair, but deadly, to arbitrarily assign NPC M-U 1s 'sleep' or 'charm person', likewise.

Rem that Elves are effectively immune, though!

Heh, funnily enough, I actually had a 2e DM rule that elves were immune to all charm school effects. Did tend to make elves somewhat more powerful.

I'd have to go back to the module, but IIRC, the Cl7 is one door away from the naga. You meet the cleric, beat him down, and then go through. So, Ramne (I think that was the MU's name) should be with them the whole time. Although, the module does suggest that he hangs back (he's very old) until the very end. Basically Deus Ex Machina save for the party. The only kinda manky part of a really excellent module.

Heh, did a bit of checking. I didn't realize that The Forest Oracle was the next one in this series. Wow. Talk about two ends of the quality spectrum.

 

[S'mon]

I'd have to go back to the module, but IIRC, the Cl7 is one door away from the naga. You meet the cleric, beat him down, and then go through.

The Cleric is in the village cult temple.

The Naga is in the swamp dungeon, miles & miles from the village.

 

[S'mon]

Basically Deus Ex Machina save for the party. The only kinda manky part of a really excellent module.

I think I ran it for a single 5th level half-ogre PC, back in the day. He didn't need the M-U.

 

[Raith5]

That's going to be a problem as long the wizard has the non-schtick of “is able to cast all spells”, and spells being tacitly defined as the thing that not only follows no rules but also can break the game's basic rules.

But we know that's not going to change soon, and certainly not in 5e.

But even with respect to the more modest form of restricted types of magic a caster can use; this is also something D&D does not have good form on. I mean, specialized wizards in 3rd had to choose two forbidden schools - I wonder how many choose evocation as a forbidden school! Second ed was pretty permissive as well from memory.

It runs against the swiss army knife effect of a having the fireballing, hasted, all identifying, monster summoning wizard we all want to have in our parties!

It seems to me that the path of really specialized Wizards go into new territory, which while I love to see it, yeah, this is unlikely to happen.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I mean, specialized wizards in 3rd had to choose two forbidden schools - I wonder how many choose evocation as a forbidden school!

Lots! Mostly because evocation was the single weakest school and the one most of the guides (especially LogicNinja's) recommended you drop.