D&D 5E What will it take to be a good DM in 5E?

Lokiare

Banned
Banned
Firstly, there's no reason to assume that 5e won't include its equivalent of "page 42". WotC are well aware of how well that was received in 4e; they would be mad not to include something similar.

Secondly, the trade-off for the 4e rules being "very clear" as you say was that the core rules ran to nearly 1,000 pages, and the supplemental rules ran to several thousand pages (and the game was structured to strongly encourage the use of those supplements). Personally, I don't find that a worthwhile trade - I found keeping track of that mass of rules (not to mention the constant changes) far more taxing than the need to make rulings.



That was not my experience with 4e at all. But I really don't want to rehash the 3e/4e Edition Wars, so I'll stop there.



Oh well, in that case, you're absolutely right! I had forgotten there were five whole numbers to work with!

Seriously, the difference between three and five levels is trivial.



Again, you assume that these guidelines won't exist. Funnily enough, until 4e was released there was no reason to think "page 42" existed in that edition; there's actually more reason to think it will exist in 5e (since WotC know it's a good idea).



So...?

Not only do I not think that's necessarily a bad thing, but neither do I think it's a new thing. Different DMs have always used different subsets of the supplements, they've always used different house rules, and they've always applied the rules that they do use unevenly. No two tables have ever been exactly alike, even in tournament play.



If it bothers you that much, write down your rulings.

Alternately, you could note that the exact same situation doesn't actually come up twice in the campaign. The PCs gain experience as they go, and they never again meet quite the same door a second time - either its a subtly different door, or if it is the same door then it has been changed by the previous interaction with the PCs.

In other words, while the DM should strive to be consistent in his approach to the game, he doesn't need to be perfectly consistent.

Besides, the players are likely not to remember either. In my experience, they find it a challenge to remember what happened in the last session even in broad strokes!



This is a misconception. Advantage and disadvantage aren't bonuses at all; they're rerolls. They will neither let you hit a DC you previously couldn't, nor automatically take one that was previously possible out of reach.



Actually, unless I've misread something, the DM shouldn't be doing those probability calculations at all. The DC of the challenge should be set, possibly in relation to PC capabilities, but independent of the possibility of advantage. Then, when the situation occurs, advantage may be applied based on the circumstances (and good play), but this should not be a factor when setting the DC.

That way, if the players are able to play well, and so gain advantage, then this serves as a very significant benefit. Which is as it should be!



This is no less true of the +2 bonus. In fact, it may be more true, given that that does allow the PC to hit the previously unhittable. And those +2s very quickly add up. Because advantage doesn't stack, that problem is avoided.



That's no less true if throwing sand reliably gives a +2 bonus. And yet, somehow we've made it through 40 years and multiple editions without every PC carrying a bag of sand, and one of flour to beat invisibility, and a mirror to beat the medusa, and string for those mazes, and...

But, just in case this is a real problem that you're facing, here's a solution: Point out to your players that their characters exist in a fantasy universe, overseen by closely-involved and fickle deities. Deities who love to be entertained, and who enjoy both boldness and cleverness. So, the first time they saw the "throwing sand" trick, it amused them enough to give Advantage. But if you do it again, it's not so exciting - they start to get bored. And when the gods yawn, that's when Disadvantage gets applied, even for the exact same trick.

(Incidentally, doing this also has the side effect that the players will now start seeking out ever more inventive ways to entertain the 'gods' with their antics. Which has the happy side effect of making your game more entertaining.)

There. Job done.



How is it a good thing for players (mature or otherwise) coming back to a game they don't like?



There's nothing in 4e stopping the players from entering the dungeon, using all their Dailies in the first encounter, retreating, and resting. Any solution that the DM employs to prevent it will also apply to pre-4e editions, and to 5e also.

Plus, WotC have already noted that with 5e they are taking steps to deal with the 15-minute AD - by setting an XP budget for the day, rather than the encounter. That way, if the PCs use the 15m/AD, the DM just responds by rearranging the encounters - instead of 16 challenging encounters, they get 4 lethal encounters... either way, across 4 days of play.

As for scry/buff/teleport, you're again assuming that WotC won't have put in counter-measures. Besides, the validity of that tactic in pre-4e was always exaggerated - even in the core, there were plenty of counter-measures.



That may be what you think you're doing, but you're really not. What you've done is taken genuine concerns, and quite possibly valid concerns, and wrapped them up in a huge amount of hyperbole and edition partisanship, to the extent that your point has become thoroughly obfuscated.

The problem is that you may well be right, but the manner in which you have expressed your concerns means they're much more likely to be dismissed than dealt with.

Wow you seem to be very argumentative.

If I'm right, then please go through and reword my concerns in non 'hyperbole and edition partisanship'. I bet you can't...

I've stated everything in a clear concise and edition neutral way, but keep on keeping on...
 

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Lokiare

Banned
Banned
This very thread is argumentative. You are trolling.

Actually no I'm not. I'm being serious in a neutral tone with factual responses. Again if you have a problem with my 'tone' then please imagine a smiley at the end of every paragraph in my posts. It will make a world of difference...
 

pemerton

Legend
Firstly, there's no reason to assume that 5e won't include its equivalent of "page 42".

<snip>

until 4e was released there was no reason to think "page 42" existed in that edition; there's actually more reason to think it will exist in 5e (since WotC know it's a good idea).
I don't think D&Dnext needs page 42, at least in the full 4e form. I'll explain why by reference to a susbsequent part of your post.

Advantage and disadvantage aren't bonuses at all; they're rerolls. They will neither let you hit a DC you previously couldn't, nor automatically take one that was previously possible out of reach.

<snip>

the DM shouldn't be doing those probability calculations at all. The DC of the challenge should be set, possibly in relation to PC capabilities, but independent of the possibility of advantage. Then, when the situation occurs, advantage may be applied based on the circumstances (and good play), but this should not be a factor when setting the DC.
I think that this is correct. When I look at the DM Guidelines, and keep in mind the commentary on "bounded accuracy", it seems pretty clear to me that DCs are to be set in an "objective" fashion (ie DCs tell us how steep the wall is, how stuck the door, how intricate the lock, etc). So you don't need page 42 (ie a general mechanic for level-appropriate DCs) - because you can set DCs based on objective difficulty in the fiction. (This is the OP's "photographic memory" problem. I personally don't think it's that bad.)

Page 42 also gives level appropriate damage, but I think it would be consistent for D&Dnext not to need that either - it would make sense for damage to also be "objective" rather than level appropriate. (You might still need guidelines for how much damage it is appropriate to send against PCs of a given level. But that wouldn't be page 42. It would be more like the advice in 4e about not using pits more than X feet deep for level Y characters if you don't want to kill them off - falling damage being about the only example of "objective damage" in 4e.)

Burning Wheel is an example of a fantasy RPG that uses "bounded accuracy" and "objective DCs". It also uses some techniques to make sure that PCs have a mix of bonuses, and hence to avoid situations in which PCs are guaranteed to be able to steamroll over the GM's challenges. Because D&D has a strong tradition of "the numbers always get bigger" and "when playing your PC, always do your best to use your biggest number", I think that this is going to be the real challenge for GMing D&Dnext: avoiding players with big numbers steamrolling over your gameworld with objective DCs.

3E "solved" this problem by giving high level monsters +33 natural AC bonuses. That's just level-dependent DCs wearing a fig leaf of objectivity. And it does away with bounded accuracy. I am hoping that D&Dnext will tackle the problem in a proper way, and give the GM the necessary tools to make it work. The lack of such tools in the playtests to date is one of the main causes of my disappointment in what I've seen so far (I think some of the spells are broken, and I think Vancian casting is probably broken per se, but both those ships have already sailed, I think, so I'm not particularly disappointed by them). But I agree with you that the maths of advantage aren't an issue.
 

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