Dual-weapon fighting is extremely lackluster

[Jeff Carlsen]

I kinda wish two-handed fighting like this were an option for everyone, and the actual 1st level feat gave it a little extra oomph somehow.

That's what I was thinking. This shouldn't be a feat. It should be how two weapon fighting works. The feat should do something else. Perhaps allow you to add the second weapon's damage die to an attack made with the first to represent how difficult it is to defend against two pointy objects.

 

[drothgery]

That's not really a downside, on average. It evens out with the fact that if you miss your first attack with both 1h and TWF, you still can do some damage with TWF. On average, it's the same.

Given the 'always round down' rule (not sure if it's in 5e, but it was in 3e and 4e), TWF as written will do less damage, period.

 

[Someone]

That's not really a downside, on average. It evens out with the fact that if you miss your first attack with both 1h and TWF, you still can do some damage with TWF. On average, it's the same.

No it's not. You must use finesse weapons, which deals less damage than most one handed martial weapons, and half the time you'll be rounding your damage down. One time bonus damage is also rounded down. Let's suppose a fighter with +3 Str, using finesse weapons he'll be doing an average of 3 damage per weapon (potential 6, if both attacks hit) vs a sword and board fighter who's dealing an average of 7,5 and gets full benefit from Deadly Strike, and was enjoying that +1 AC from 1st level.

Admitedly the fighter using two weapons can simply not use the feat and increase his average damage to 6,5 plus Deadly strike, if he wants.

 

[triqui]

No it's not. You must use finesse weapons, which deals less damage than most one handed martial weapons, and half the time you'll be rounding your damage down. One time bonus damage is also rounded down. Let's suppose a fighter with +3 Str, using finesse weapons he'll be doing an average of 3 damage per weapon (potential 6, if both attacks hit) vs a sword and board fighter who's dealing an average of 7,5 and gets full benefit from Deadly Strike, and was enjoying that +1 AC from 1st level.

Admitedly the fighter using two weapons can simply not use the feat and increase his average damage to 6,5 plus Deadly strike, if he wants.

Fair point with the Finesse weapons.

So, assuming you hit with 11+, and assuming you crit on 20, a S&B fighter with +4 str will do 0.45*8.5+=.05*12, or 4.2, while a dual wielding fighter will have 0.45*3+0,45*3+0.05*5+0.05*5=3.2 on average. The DW can actually have more use from combat superiority when used as a rider (to push or knock down, for example), while the S&B get slightly more from deadly strike (it's more when it hits, but it hits one every other round). DW kills 2 goblins per turn, and S&B kills one.

 

[nightwalker450]

I like the idea of allowing anyone to use the base two-weapon fighting.

Make the feat allow you to make a second attack with offhand if you miss for half damage.

 

[Someone]

Yes, I pointed at doubling your chances to inflict non-damage riders as the reason to use dueal wielding. Mowing down minions would be a good one too if you expect to fight 1d6, 3hp hit die critters forever. Once you gets past them dual wielding is a liability, damage wise.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I don't get it, am I missing something? With finesse weapons you can use your Dex mod, but you don't have to. So a +3 Strength Fighter could get 1d6+3 halved and 1d6+3 halved (or 6/6 on average) with his two attacks, against 1d8+3 for S&B (or 7 on average) or 1d12+3 for a heavy weapon (or 9 on average). TWF is much better?

 

[Someone]

I don't get it, am I missing something? With finesse weapons you can use your Dex mod, but you don't have to. So a +3 Strength Fighter could get 1d6+3 halved and 1d6+3 halved (or 6/6 on average) with his two attacks, against 1d8+3 for S&B (or 7 on average) or 1d12+3 for a heavy weapon (or 9 on average). TWF is much better?

1d6+3 gives the following spread: 4,5,6,7,8,9. Halving and rounding down you get 2,2,3,3,4,4. The average of those figures is 3.

 

[Halivar]

So a +3 Strength Fighter could get 1d6+3 halved and 1d6+3 halved (or 6/6 on average)

His damage range will be 2-4 on each hand, and an average total of ~5. TWF is not that great here.

EDIT: Someone is more correct. I was doing more complicated in my maths in my head than I needed to, and the proper average total is 6.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

So how are we assuming CS and SA damage works with Twf? Applied to both attacks and halved, applied to one attack and halved, or applied to one attack with full effect?

The first and third option would each have advantages, while the second would clearly suck. My current guess is applied to one attack at full effect. (But of course a fighter with 2+ CS dice could split the bonus damage.)