D&D 5E You can't necessarily go back

[Hussar]

I'm all for making the character you want. I think where people have problems (and where I know I do) is the idea that your equipment is part of who you are, which 3e in particular strongly reinforces. I think those choices are great, but any time you start expanding character creation rules outside of your character (be it through assumed items, stronghold resources, cohorts, animal companions), you're in really dicey territory.

There's also the unfortunate dynamic that equipment is far more important for noncasters than casters, which is really counterintuitive. A really good fighter should just be able to punch someone in the face or pick up a sword and go, whereas a spellcaster should need a staff or a scroll or some rare incense to do anything.

I would be nice if characters were balanced independently of their equipment.

But, let's be fair here. Your character being tied to certain magic items is hardly outside the realm of genre fiction though. I mean, what's King Arthur without Excalibur? He's just some dude until he yanks that sword out of a rock or some watery tart chucks it at him.

Fantasy and myth are replete with characters who are indelibly linked to signature equipment. So, it's not too much of a stretch to think that some people want to play Iron Man rather than Spider Man, to borrow a comic book example. Elric and Stormbringer, Frodo/Bilbo and Sting. Actually, a fair bit of Tolkien has characters very, very strongly tied up with equipment. Imagine if Aragorn chucked Narsil because he found a better plussed halberd that he was proficient in.

I totally understand why people don't like the whole "magic mart" vibe in 3e. Whether it actually be a physical store or just an abstraction of shopping in the town. But, if you don't allow players to buy magic items, how do you avoid cookie cutter characters where everyone always takes the same weapons because that's the mostly likely weapons that will be found in treasure?

 

[billd91]

But, if you don't allow players to buy magic items, how do you avoid cookie cutter characters where everyone always takes the same weapons because that's the mostly likely weapons that will be found in treasure?

That really doesn't bother me much at all. If you use the 1e tables as an example, magic swords were pretty common (a little under half of all magic weapons) and most of them (70%, I think) were long swords. I think that helps promote the cult of the sword you tend to see in fantasy literature, so it's genre enhancing.

Plus, in a model in which PCs aren't going out and buying their own stuff, the DM can easily take on the mantle of providing the PCs with enough adventure hooks to quest for appropriate weapons as well as provide enough examples of other varieties of magic weapons in recovered loot that the PCs should do just fine.

 

[pemerton]

I think those choices are great, but any time you start expanding character creation rules outside of your character (be it through assumed items, stronghold resources, cohorts, animal companions), you're in really dicey territory.

Why? What's dicey about the equipment being an element of the character creation rules? That's pretty common in a wide range of RPGs.

There's also the unfortunate dynamic that equipment is far more important for noncasters than casters, which is really counterintuitive. A really good fighter should just be able to punch someone in the face or pick up a sword and go, whereas a spellcaster should need a staff or a scroll or some rare incense to do anything.

I would be nice if characters were balanced independently of their equipment.

Hmm - I wonder if there's an edition of D&D in which this is the case?!

 

[billd91]

Why? What's dicey about the equipment being an element of the character creation rules? That's pretty common in a wide range of RPGs.

That's true, but they can be problematic as well. Spent points or whatever on strongholds and allies can be wasted if the GM doesn't make use of the resources. Most of these systems also discourage the use of found, looted, or scavenged gear, which isn't a great fit for the fantasy genre.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Hmm - I wonder if there's an edition of D&D in which this is the case?!

I believe it was in oD&D - although I'm waiting for Reaper to send me the Swords and Wizardry rules.

 

[Ahnehnois]

But, let's be fair here. Your character being tied to certain magic items is hardly outside the realm of genre fiction though. I mean, what's King Arthur without Excalibur? He's just some dude until he yanks that sword out of a rock or some watery tart chucks it at him.

Fantasy and myth are replete with characters who are indelibly linked to signature equipment. So, it's not too much of a stretch to think that some people want to play Iron Man rather than Spider Man, to borrow a comic book example. Elric and Stormbringer, Frodo/Bilbo and Sting. Actually, a fair bit of Tolkien has characters very, very strongly tied up with equipment. Imagine if Aragorn chucked Narsil because he found a better plussed halberd that he was proficient in.

That's true that many magic items are iconic. I do not think, however, that if you were creating such a character in an rpg, you would create it with the signature item. Arthur did not have his sword until he pulled it out of a boulder. Sting was a gift. In D&D terms, these things seem clearly in the purview of the DM.

Also, there's a rather large difference between being tied to a sword and the typical D&D magic item progression. I don't know a lot of fantasy characters who are defined by their ring of protection, cloak of resistance, gauntlets of ogre power combo.

But, if you don't allow players to buy magic items, how do you avoid cookie cutter characters where everyone always takes the same weapons because that's the mostly likely weapons that will be found in treasure?

Good question.

 

[Neonchameleon]

But, if you don't allow players to buy magic items, how do you avoid cookie cutter characters where everyone always takes the same weapons because that's the mostly likely weapons that will be found in treasure?

Three ways:

1: Magic Item Wishlists/tailoring to the PCs/making them quest for their items. Either way, you let the PCs slightly direct the items.

2: Throwing weird and wonderful items at the party and letting them retrain their specialisation to deal. For instance if you have three fighters in the party you pick three non-swords with interesting sounding names - you give one a Lucerne Hammer, one a Bec de Corbin, and one a Pollaxe.*

3: You make magic items incredibly rare. 13th age style 1 item per level at most (and there are only 10 levels in 13th age).

* Possibly there is a use for Appendix T.

 

[slobster]

That's true that many magic items are iconic. I do not think, however, that if you were creating such a character in an rpg, you would create it with the signature item. Arthur did not have his sword until he pulled it out of a boulder. Sting was a gift. In D&D terms, these things seem clearly in the purview of the DM.

I have played characters, though, whose possession of a magical artifact was intrinsic to the character. If I'd had to wait for the GM to assign the artifact as treasure, it would have defeated the point of playing the character.

For instance, I played an antique dealer who had stumbled across Benjamin Franklin's bifocals, which granted him the knowledge and insight to start dealing with the supernatural and identify and use other magical artifacts. Without the item he was just a normal antique dealer, and wouldn't have contributed much to his supernatural themed campaign.

Fortunately I was playing a game that let me choose a magical item as a defining part of my character during character creation, so it worked out. I understand that D&D is a different beast, and so will probably not include "artifact" as an option for level one characters. Still, I'd enjoy giving the players some agency in choosing the types of items they receive and get to employ, even if only as an option. There are a lot of character concepts tightly wedded to items of power, and I'd like to see the game facilitate them.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I have played characters, though, whose possession of a magical artifact was intrinsic to the character. If I'd had to wait for the GM to assign the artifact as treasure, it would have defeated the point of playing the character.

I've had characters whose nonhuman high-ECL races were intrinsic to the character, whose rulership of a kingdom was intrinsic to the character, or whose destiny was intrinsic to the character. That doesn't mean I expect the character creation rules to allow me to create a dragon who owns a kingdom and has a special destiny.

The bonded item thing is nice, and deserves a good optional presentation somewhere. I'm not saying that character creation rules that go outside of the character are always 100% bad, just that they're often bad. The mandatory-to-fight-effectively cloaks of resistance/+X armor and shields/ability increase items should not be part of a character.

 

[slobster]

I've had characters whose nonhuman high-ECL races were intrinsic to the character, whose rulership of a kingdom was intrinsic to the character, or whose destiny was intrinsic to the character. That doesn't mean I expect the character creation rules to allow me to create a dragon who owns a kingdom and has a special destiny.

The bonded item thing is nice, and deserves a good optional presentation somewhere. I'm not saying that character creation rules that go outside of the character are always 100% bad, just that they're often bad. The mandatory-to-fight-effectively cloaks of resistance/+X armor and shields/ability increase items should not be part of a character.

Fair enough, especially the last sentence. Though I think the way to get rid of the dependency on +x magic items (be they swords, cloaks, or plate armor) is to get rid of +x magic items. It has little to do with item creation rules, everything to do with the way they warp the system's math and demand that players pursue them (often at the expense of more interesting or appropriate magic items) or fall behind.