So that's it for 4th edition I guess?

[Quickleaf]

I looked into doing this, and the main obstacle with oldschool-style dungeoncrawls that neither 3.x nor 4e handles well is "quick-hit" random encounters. Both systems do a reasonable job at 1st level, but by the time levels 6+ are hit, things can slow down considerably.

As a huge 4e fan, I have to concede that nothing does 1e-style dungeoncrawls better than 1e itself.

-O

Yeah, I agree with you for two reasons: One, the 1e modules just rocks the socks off most everything official for 4e. Two, the shear amount of character options in higher-level 4e slow things down in a way that just didn't happen in 1e.

I like 4e too, but I don't find it's combat pacing ideal. I guess I was thinking of ways of abstracting convoluted mega-dungeons into a skill challenge/encounter hybrid that (a) takes less game time to play through, (b) excises some of the tedium, and (c) is less headache for the DM.

Probably what constitutes "tedium" has a lot to do with our individual approaches and experiences with D&D. Personally, when my group of young professionals and grad students gets together 1 or 2 times a month to play D&D, I want to make the most of our sessions.

 

[VinylTap]

I think its good to keep in mind that playing a 'live' system and playing a 'dead' system are quite different experiences. One's not better than the other, but 'live' systems do have a certain energy to them. Dead's a bad word, but I can't think of a better term. Part of the social aspect of the game is outside of the game, in meta-game territory-- and nothing spurs conversation like a new source book.

Systems without the support of a company releasing constant material really has to fall back on the strength of the system itself. Without a constant stream of support the game is going to change, but its doesn't mean it isn't just as playable as it is tonight. There's nothing that can stop the eventual end of a product cycle, its just the nature of the industry.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that 4th is going to change, but its not going to go away. If the system is as good as its advocates insist, then it has nothing to fear. Now it just has to run on the merits of its community and its system, both which seem to be in good shape.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I think its good to keep in mind that playing a 'live' system and playing a 'dead' system are quite different experiences. One's not better than the other, but 'live' systems do have a certain energy to them. Dead's a bad word, but I can't think of a better term.

I do not think alive and dead are good words to use either as they don't really mean anything.

Supported and unsupported
In-print and Out of Print
Played and not played

All of the are better distinctions.

 

[pemerton]

I can't stand using skill challenges for social interaction; I use them for more dramatic task resolution and leave social interaction to roleplay and a few dice rolls without the structure.

Whereas my primary use of skill challenges is for resolving social conflicts; I use them for exploration too, but not as much and not with the same degree of success.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Supported and unsupported
In-print and Out of Print

Those work, your third did not.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think its good to keep in mind that playing a 'live' system and playing a 'dead' system are quite different experiences. One's not better than the other, but 'live' systems do have a certain energy to them. Dead's a bad word, but I can't think of a better term. Part of the social aspect of the game is outside of the game, in meta-game territory-- and nothing spurs conversation like a new source book.

Systems without the support of a company releasing constant material really has to fall back on the strength of the system itself. Without a constant stream of support the game is going to change, but its doesn't mean it isn't just as playable as it is tonight. There's nothing that can stop the eventual end of a product cycle, its just the nature of the industry.

I wonder how modern an assumption that is though?

I started playing with OD&D and adventuring/fun/discussion was generated from our imaginations, not the release of supplements. Same when we moved to RQ.

Could it be that we have got used to 'support' being a constant stream of new rules or adventures and we have forgotten how to be self-starting?

Arguably the success of dragonsfoot and other places focused on early editions suggest that it is not a lost art

Cheers,

 

[Tony Vargas]

I realize this is contentious, but I actually think 4e can do an AD&D style dungeon crawl like Dragon Mountain just as well as older editions...perhaps even better if the design of monsters and skill challenges were really pushed. So far the closest I've seen to a 4e design paradigm encouraging old school play is Revenge of the Iron Lich.

I ran Temple of the Frog (the 0D&D module that was in Blackmoor) using Essentials - with minis on a bare table-top, no grid, just a pocket tape measure and pencils set down for walls. I didn't change the type or numbers of monsters, the bizarre 'boss,' or the convoluted maps. I decided on 9th level pregens, though, making for some radically under-powered encounters, so a wandering troll wouldn't just eat the party, but it worked surprisingly well. (sadly the trolls never showed, and the party recruited the medusae...)

Anyway, all I'm saying is that 4th is going to change, but its not going to go away. If the system is as good as its advocates insist, then it has nothing to fear. Now it just has to run on the merits of its community and its system, both which seem to be in good shape.

Actually, it probably is going to fade away. Unlike 3.x and other earlier games it can't really be 'cloned' in d20, it's own GSL is very restrictive, so no one is going to be able to pull a Pathfinder and basically publish the SRD as a competing game. Once the DDI tools are killed and anyone bootlegging a clone of the system has been C&D'd, it'll be down to insular groups running long-standing campaigns. There may be quite a lot of that - it is an excellent system and 5e doesn't seem to be on track to do any better - but it doesn't make a lot of 'noise' in the community. Other, niche, games will attract the attention of those looking for something better than 5e, and they'll exit the community entirely.

It will become very easy to conclude that 4e is dead - especially for those edition warriors who fought so hard to kill it.

 

[Jhaelen]

Personally, when my group of young professionals and grad students gets together 1 or 2 times a month to play D&D, I want to make the most of our sessions.

I'm in a similar situation; our group meets only every 3-4 weeks. 4e's my favorite edition, though.

Part of the social aspect of the game is outside of the game, in meta-game territory-- and nothing spurs conversation like a new source book.

Exactly! And it's even more important if you don't get to actually play often. New supplements make it easier to stay engaged between sessions and keep up interest.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Those work, your third did not.

Sure it does, but it is mostly local areas.

One reason I do not look at PAthfinder is no one I know plays it or wants to.

 

[Pour]

I agree with most people, 4e isn't dead. It can't be killed, despite WotC's best attempts hehe.

In all seriousness, though, it hasn't been supported beyond static tools in about a year, and whatever the magazines offer- which, while occasionally juicy, isn't anything a dedicated fan or inspired DM couldn't pull off. Okay, a season or two of Encounters, sure, but I don't know how much or how little that inspires us to play an edition or not. 4e has its supporters and even if that number is halved, people will be playing it. Inevitably, there is always a group that sticks with a system, or keeps it in their arsenal (as I am).

Now comes the really interesting time, when people begin to push the system this way and that through extended play, and the game diverges into various hybrids as happened to past editions. I just hope these DMs blog or post, because I really want to hear where they take their games, and how. There's also more than a few heartbreakers out now, from Complete4e to Magic Sword to Holy BBQ, etc. More are no doubt coming.

Look, the end of an edition is always in the cards, but I think it might be one of the best things to happen to 4e. Admittedly, after listening to all the bloggers, forum posters, and watching 4e DMs in action, I'm of the mind the fanbase always had a better handle of 4e than most of the designers. Looking back on the management and design choices throughout 4e's life cycle only confirms this in my mind.