Halivar
First Post
1st Edition AD&D wasn't released OGL, either, and yet there is a thriving ecosystem of retro games and clones without incurring any C&D's from WotC.
-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
So that's it for 4th edition I guess?
- Thread starter Evenglare
- Start date
Pour
First Post
Agreed to an extent. I'm pretty sure there's never going to be a P4thfinder, but that won't prevent a section of gamers from continuing for non-profit or miniscule profit. And while the larger numbers with a true 4e successor might have accelerated or expanded innovation, I don't think it'll entirely stifle it either.
Also, 13th Age has many 4thisms and will be OGL. I bet someone could backwards engineer the system into something even more 4e by adding back in the grid combat.
Labyrinth Lord and Osric are both OGL though, and they went through quite a bit of effort to do it. What might have helped them a lot is that a lot of the core concepts were still the same - the basic gist of many of the classes, races, monsters, and spells from 1e are still visible in the 3.5 srd.
Rules-wise, using the 3.5 srd and without using protected material from the 4e books, how many of these can you make: deva, dragonborn, eladrin, githzerai, goliath, shardminds, shifters, wilden, artificer, avenger, invoker, psion, warden, warlock, and AEDU powers?
Tony Vargas
Legend
While the loss of trademarked nouns is an issue, it's not a huge one. It's really the loss of the core game that's a problem. For 3.5, the core game is right there in the SRD. Add a bit to it and you've published a 3.5 retro-clone - easy and legal. The core of 4e is copyrighted, you can't just re-print the Fighter, Cleric, Rogue & Wizard, add a few bits, and have a retro-clone, you'd have to re-invent each class and power, trying to cleave to the ideas, balance, and 'feel' without actually snatching any one sentence verbatim.
A 4e retro-clone is impractical for those legal reasons. Things like 13th Age and Radiance can skate close to it, but they can't just re-publish it with a new coat of paint like Pathfinder did with 3.5 - and that's what made Pathfinder so successful, that it /was/ 3.5 for the 3.5 holdouts. Having seen that 'lost revenue' and 'damage to the brand,' Hasbro isn't going to let it happen again with 4e.
New supplements for 4e is a possibility, though, until the GSL is revoked.
Evenglare
Adventurer
I really -really- hope they start selling their entire line of 4th edition pdf's when they start selling their pdfs again. I know they said they would slowly add support, but I'm hoping that's for older stuff. There's no reason they shouldnt have the entire 4e line up and ready to go . It's annoying , I'd gladly give them my money if this was available, but now I have to procure them through... other ways... even though I own every single 4th edition book in print. Grrr.
Eh. Not a big fan of 'in print/out of print'. Almost all non-PoD print RPG material is technically out of print before it ever hits a shelf or an Amazon warehouse; there's one print run and that's it.
Grimmjow
First Post
while i enjoy where the play-test is going and plan to play it over fourth, i agree that it is disappointing that 4th is finished so soon. The least they could do is make it ALL accessible through the internet. Along with that GOOD DETAILED support through the internet (like dungeon and dragon magazines). While i wont use them, they should provide these for those still wanting to play the baby game.
jbear
First Post
I have more than a life times worth of material for 4e, much of which I may never get a chance to use. I'm not someone to say no to a game because it is not my favourite game either. (Hey J, feel like a game of soccer with the lads on Saturday? No! I play basketball!). So I play other other editions as well. No big deal.
I enjoy roleplaying games. That's a big fullstop right there. And I especially enjoy 4e. I love bad ass tactical battles with mind blowingly cool terrain and things and stuff and then other stuff suddenly messing with the first stuff and ... yeah, I can see all that in my head, but I imagine you probably can't so I'll stop. I haven't really had that experience in combat ever before with other systems. They have been more like 'boom, boom, boom ... and moving on'. I also love madly twisted, maniacally evil plots and dark creepy mysteries and 4e really doesn't get in the way of that for me. And neither do the rules which is great.
So, the fact that no more splat books being produced is not really going to affect my opinion. If Hasbro stopped producing Monopoly and I wanted to play Monopoly ... I'd take out my box of Monopoly ... and play Monopoly.
I really don't need to be told how or what to play games. That's why I love roleplaying games. They are like a starter set for you to make up any game your imagination can conjure up. They give you a baseline mechanic to springboard from, and to base all the successive minigames that you invent along the journey off of.
That is another thing i love about 4e. Its baseline is so solid and slick it is just so easy to add all of those things to, to tinker with to get it just how you like. And it doesn't fall apart because it is able to recognise that it is a game. "No... you can't just fly forever. Why? Because it is a game, and if you could ... well that would suck."
I'd like to add a last comment that I think it is unfair at this stage to say that WotC is killing 4e. Why would they do that? They may not be investing time and money into developing it further (they seem quite busy ... do you blame them?), but really? They are reprinting 1e and 2e and 3.5 books and talking about bringing back pdfs ... and you really think they will shoot themselves in the foot by alienating 4e fans by somehow killing their access to the game they enjoy?? I can't see that happening.
I enjoy roleplaying games. That's a big fullstop right there. And I especially enjoy 4e. I love bad ass tactical battles with mind blowingly cool terrain and things and stuff and then other stuff suddenly messing with the first stuff and ... yeah, I can see all that in my head, but I imagine you probably can't so I'll stop. I haven't really had that experience in combat ever before with other systems. They have been more like 'boom, boom, boom ... and moving on'. I also love madly twisted, maniacally evil plots and dark creepy mysteries and 4e really doesn't get in the way of that for me. And neither do the rules which is great.
So, the fact that no more splat books being produced is not really going to affect my opinion. If Hasbro stopped producing Monopoly and I wanted to play Monopoly ... I'd take out my box of Monopoly ... and play Monopoly.
I really don't need to be told how or what to play games. That's why I love roleplaying games. They are like a starter set for you to make up any game your imagination can conjure up. They give you a baseline mechanic to springboard from, and to base all the successive minigames that you invent along the journey off of.
That is another thing i love about 4e. Its baseline is so solid and slick it is just so easy to add all of those things to, to tinker with to get it just how you like. And it doesn't fall apart because it is able to recognise that it is a game. "No... you can't just fly forever. Why? Because it is a game, and if you could ... well that would suck."
I'd like to add a last comment that I think it is unfair at this stage to say that WotC is killing 4e. Why would they do that? They may not be investing time and money into developing it further (they seem quite busy ... do you blame them?), but really? They are reprinting 1e and 2e and 3.5 books and talking about bringing back pdfs ... and you really think they will shoot themselves in the foot by alienating 4e fans by somehow killing their access to the game they enjoy?? I can't see that happening.
WarlockLord
First Post
It's dead.
Judging from the desperation of the 5e playtest and the lack of interest shown by the non EnWorld community, 5e is probably dead too.
Judging from the desperation of the 5e playtest and the lack of interest shown by the non EnWorld community, 5e is probably dead too.
Randomthoughts
Adventurer
This entire post is great, but I wanted to elaborate on these points in particular.
Even having a campaign that will probably last for a couple of years (or more), there is no way I'll use/consume all the content I have during my lifetime. But I can see myself, even after going to another system, coming back to 4e for a while or trying it out with my kids, when they grow old enough.
Right now, I'm looking forward to tinkering with some of the rules. 4e is far from perfect (what game is?) But I'm not particularly interested in a full rewrite of the system. There are just a few tweaks and gaps that need to be filled (like better ritual rules). I'm looking at 5e for both inspiration to improve 4e and as a possible replacement for it.
But in its current incarnation, I'll pass.
Last edited:
