D&D 5E Poll: What is a Level 1 PC?

What is a Level 1 PC?

  • Average Joe

    Votes: 21 6.1%
  • Average Joe... with potential

    Votes: 120 34.7%
  • Special but not quite a Hero

    Votes: 175 50.6%
  • Already a Hero and extraordinary

    Votes: 30 8.7%

1. We've already proven that combat ability can be tailored to the specific NPC class.

2. There's zero level classes in certain edittions of D&D and 1st level NPC classes do not have to be comparable to a first level PC.

3. Unless you want a system to create a complete NPC as opposed to giving you the value for a singular skill...

4. It's only alot of work if classes are made to be complex and/or fiddly.

5. We don't expect humans to fight winged behemoths with fire breath the size of t-rex's and survive either... it's (heroic)fantasy.

6. XP can be awarded by the DM for things other than killing monsters since at least 3.0... and if I remeber correctly, even some editions before that.
The thing is, everything you're saying here to patch up the world-building issues makes for a more complex system. And I think it's way past the point of diminishing returns for statting up butchers and bakers.

I think zero-level is the way to handle all of this, for what it's worth.

-O
 

log in or register to remove this ad

The thing is, everything you're saying here to patch up the world-building issues makes for a more complex system. And I think it's way past the point of diminishing returns for statting up butchers and bakers.

I think zero-level is the way to handle all of this, for what it's worth.

-O

Well I think at a certain point two people can just agree to disagree. Like I said, right now my system of choice is DCC rpg, which is strong in the philosophy of just making up stuff... Now, while I prefer that philosophy in my gaming at this point (and not just in NPC design), I can also see the point of having highly codified systems for those who want or need them as well... especially when the game has highly codified systems for some things like encounter design, treasure allocation, etc... but then tells the DM to just make some stuff up for other things. *Shrug* to each his own I guess.
 

Ultimately I guess I just don't see how giving those who want a fully fleshed out NPC construction system that is based on the same creation rules asC's (whatever they are in the new edition) in any way hinders those who are going to choose to make it up anyway? Ignore it and make it up if you want... and for those who do want to use it, it's there.

Because every single supplement, module, whatever I buy from that point onwards has to be crammed with useless to me information and endlessly padded with pointless stat blocks. Stat blocks, I'd point out, that are about a quarter of a page long, depending on what format you want to use.

And, I'd point out, your use of the term sandbox here is somewhat misleading. Just because you run a sandbox campaign does not make it any more or less likely that the PC's are going to attack the baker. I fail to see how having a linear versus open ended campaign has any bearing on this. Unless, of course, you simply meant it as a passive aggressive "I don't railroad, so, I need all this information because it might come up" sort of cheap shot.

I mean, if a DM is so oblivious to the playstyles of his players that he cannot guess with a fair degree of accuracy whether or not a given encounter is going to be combat or not, I don't know that any system is really going to help here.
 
Last edited:


Who said anything about stripping all mandatory progression out of your classes. Again, ability increases, feats, defenses, etc
Who said anything about ingame logic? How is it any more or less logical than make it up? Maybe I'm not understanding your question here...
My comment on ingame logic is this:

* If defences are based on some sort of resource-allocation system (as in HARP and, to a lesser extent, Rolemaster) then level isn't a measure of defences, and hence not a meaningful measure of challenge;

* If defences are based not on resource-allocation, but are simply a function of level, then the same points made by [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION] and others upthread re-emerges - why does improving my skill as baker also make me better at dodging explosions and swallowing toxins? That is the issue of ingame logic I'm referring to.

The level of the PC determines the upper limits of the degree of challenge for numerous things such as skills and abilities.
This is not the aim of any edition of D&D. Every edition of D&D intends that the level of a PC doesn't just establish an upper limit of ability, but also an actual degree of ability. Hence the idea, in AD&D, that XP rewards and dungeon levels are in some sense related to PC level (though it's complicated in that game by the varying XP requirements for different classes); hence the idea in 3E of CR, and in 4e of encounter level.

This outcome is achieved by baking certain mandatory elements of numerical progression into a class: to hit, hit points, saves (defences in 4e), skill bonuses (for thieves in classic D&D and for all classes in 4e) etc.

It's also worth noting that those points in which numerical progression is split off from level - as with skills and AC in 3E (though wealth by level puts some outer limits on the degree of AC variation) - are also the points where the correlation between level and challenge is notorious for breaking down.

A system like Rolemaster and HARP in which level tells you nothing about the actual capabilities of a being, and only (i) the number of build resources that can be spent on it, and (ii) the maximum bonus it can enjoy in any category, means that level can't be used as a measure of challenge.

Once you start designing your various NPC classes in which level has no meaningful correlation to any particular degree of numerical potency, you will be in the same position as Rolemaster and HARP - the level of a being will not tell you anything interesting about the challenge it poses. Which is to say, it won't do the job for which you, upthread, argued that it is required.

How do we cut straight to actual bonus without context.
Huh? The context is the degree of ability that fits the fictional circumstances of the NPC. With that in mind, we assign a bonus.

let's say your baker is challenged to a arm wrestling contest by one of the PC's... how would you determine the baker's strength in a fair manner...since all you gave him was a skill in bakery?
As [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] suggested, perhaps roll 3d6. Or just make up something consistent with the established fiction about the baker - if s/he has been described already as "fit" or "strong", assign something between 12 and 16, whereas if s/he has been described as "weedy" or "consumptive" assign something between 7 and 9. If there is no relevant established fiction, then just make something up that seems like it will be fun!

I have to confess, if a GM is having trouble assigning a STR score to an NPC baker, how is s/he going to make the more complex choices that typically arise in encounter design?
 

And, again, is it the purpose of the mechanics to cover every single eventuality? I mean, the example is now arm wrestling a baker. I'm fairly certain that this is not something that's going to come up very often. As in close enough to never to at least be able to see never on a clear day.

And, really, AFAIC, that's pretty much what most of the class/level mechanics for an NPC are good for. Mostly nothing. Yup, once in a very long while, it might come up. But, it's sufficiently rare that you simply have a generic statblock for "Dude, normal" for the rare occasions when you actually need combat stats.
 


This will be my last post on this subject since it seems to have devolved into the same posters postiting why designing NPC's as PC's is a bad idea and it seems that everyone is fairly entrenched in their own beliefs on the matter. All I'll say is there has to be a reason that the industry standard for the most popular games such as WoD, WH40K, Dragon Age, Pathfinder, BRP, etc. all have a system where designing NPC's is the same as designing a PC. Whereas I find it hard to think of a game that isn't niche that uses seperate rules for NPC and PC construction (besides D&D 4e)... I wonder why?

I can't state with 100% certainty why people are attracted to these systems that "force" them to waste so much time and do unnecessary work (maybe because it's a hobby for enjoyment and everyone isn't necessarily looking for the most efficient or streamlined process... maybe some find building NPC's out as fun... I honestly don't know)... but I would say it appeals to a sizeable chunk of the market. It was one of th earliest complaints about 4e and regardless of how much people try to show why their way is better... I think D&D not having a NPC built as PC's system in place will hurt it in the long run as far as popularity and sales. But who knows, I could be wrong and people could secretly loathe these games they are playing right now... Guess time will tell.
 

This will be my last post on this subject since it seems to have devolved into the same posters postiting why designing NPC's as PC's is a bad idea and it seems that everyone is fairly entrenched in their own beliefs on the matter. All I'll say is there has to be a reason that the industry standard for the most popular games such as WoD, WH40K, Dragon Age, Pathfinder, BRP, etc. all have a system where designing NPC's is the same as designing a PC. Whereas I find it hard to think of a game that isn't niche that uses seperate rules for NPC and PC construction (besides D&D 4e)... I wonder why?
At this point you may be wondering, do NPCs have character classes? The answer is that they can, but they don't have to. Classes provide a framework for advancement that is necessary for the Player Characters, but not for NPCs. If you want to use the rules in the Player's Guide to build NPCs, you certainly can do that, but you are equally welcome to give NPCs whatever ability focuses, talents, and so on that seem appropriate.

Dragon Age Game Master's Guide, page 25

The PCs will meet many people in their travels, and you needn't provide full stat blocks for all of them. Oftentimes, NPCs will only appear in the game for a single roleplaying encounter. Many of them don't need stats at all...

Dragon Age Game Master's Guide, page 26

Now, it does go on to say that it can be useful to have an abbreviated statblock for such characters, but gives no sign that you are expected to generate such by using the same system provided for PCs. In fact, doing so would be quite absurd, because PC generation is so heavily randomized that an attempt to produce an NPC to suit the situation you need it for would produce unsuitable results far more often than suitable ones. The abbreviated statblock for the Innkeeper provided on page 26 contains only ability scores and focuses (in Drinking, Tasting, Bargaining, Persuasion, Evaluation, and Morale). No level is given to justify having so many focuses. In fact, it's flat-out impossible for a first-box-set PC to have that many. Nor is there an NPC-generating system that justifies an increase in the number of focuses available. No listed NPC or monster statblock lists a level of any sort.

There is basically nothing at all separating Dragon Age's approach to NPCs from 4E's. They both say you can use the PC method for generating them, if you want to, but that most of the time you needn't bother.

Pathfinder, in pretty much all respects, is another iteration of 3E, the only edition of D&D that ever had NPC-specific classes. It treats NPCs the way it does because D&D 3E treated them the way it does. The very fact that those systems have NPC-specific classes (rather than having all NPCs statted up using the same classes the PCs use) is having separate rules for NPC construction.

Others have already talked about how earlier editions handled NPCs, but it clearly wasn't the same as it handled PCs, nor was it by having classes set aside for NPCs to take. OD&D only had three classes to work with, to start, and assuming that every single person in the world is a Fighting-Man, Cleric, or Magic-User would create an... interesting world, but one that most would consider quite absurd. Especially given that the level 1 Fighting-Man is explicitly a Veteran, implying that there was a point at which he, like most people, was not a level 1 character of any stripe.

3E and its derivatives are the odd ones out in the D&D lineage on the NPC front, not 4E: No other D&D has NPC classes.

Don't mistake sharing some of the same trappings with PC generation and statblocks for being the same system. The 3E third-level commoner* blacksmith is no more following the same system as a 3E fighter than a 4E villager-picked-at-random is following the same system as a 4E fighter. Nobody played that Commoner through two levels slaying goblins to earn the XP he needed to reach the skill bonus that the DM wanted him to have. The DM picked the bonus he wanted, and set the level to where it needed to be to justify it... when all he needed in the first place was the bonus (or, as I've suggested before, the yes/no answer to the question "Can he do what the PCs want him to do?").

If, in my campaign, the players suddenly have a burning need to arm-wrestle the baker, I don't need to know what class and level the baker is. I just decide whether I want him to be a easy, medium, or hard challenge for the person who wants to arm-wrestle him, and find the number on the table. If I want to make it an opposed roll, I subtract 10 and use the result as a modifier to a d20 roll. Easy as the pie that I don't need to know how skilled he is at baking.

I can't state with 100% certainty why people are attracted to these systems that "force" them to waste so much time and do unnecessary work (maybe because it's a hobby for enjoyment and everyone isn't necessarily looking for the most efficient or streamlined process... maybe some find building NPC's out as fun... I honestly don't know)... but I would say it appeals to a sizeable chunk of the market. It was one of th earliest complaints about 4e and regardless of how much people try to show why their way is better... I think D&D not having a NPC built as PC's system in place will hurt it in the long run as far as popularity and sales. But who knows, I could be wrong and people could secretly loathe these games they are playing right now... Guess time will tell.
There is absolutely nothing in 4E that prevents one from building an NPC as a PC. In fact, they give you advice on how to go about it in the DMG, if I recall correctly.



* I know we've used expert for it in places upthread, but the 3.5 Character Class Index on the WotC site specifically lists blacksmiths as one of the kinds of character covered by Commoner.
 

Whereas I find it hard to think of a game that isn't niche that uses seperate rules for NPC and PC construction (besides D&D 4e)... I wonder why?
Few of those other games use class/level. That's the main stumbling block here. NPC classes are idiosyncratic to 3e and its close kin.

If you have a skill-based system like Savage Worlds, the rules for NPCs are pretty easy - the GM gives them what they need to operate and doesn't worry about advances, buying up attribute dice, etc. That's precisely the approach I'm suggesting.

-O
 

Remove ads

Top