The revised monster math

[Storminator]

hey all,

As we know, the monster math got revised in the MM3. I need a good monster for my upcoming game. In case my players are poking around, I continue behind the spoiler block

[sblock] I want to throw a solo dragon at them. They are level 9, there are 7 PCs, and they are a pretty formidable wrecking crew. I think I'm probably the 5th best optimizer in the group - maybe the 6th.

There are no solo dragons in the MM3. What is another good source of solo dragons?

I'm not adverse to fiddling with a stat block, but I want to start close.

I'm not in least concerned about the flavor, or various keywords. I have to change those anyway (it's a special construct of House Cannith).

[/sblock]
Any help?

PS

P.S. And if my players are reading this . . . read no further!

PS

 

[Sunseeker]

Level 9 you say? 7 PC's you say? Powerhouses you say?

9x7/4.5=14APL

Calastryx I say! http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4pr/20110606

 

[Quickleaf]

With a strong balanced party, I would make up your own using Monstre Vault. A guideline. There are two features in particular you'd want to include from that book:

Action Recovery: End daze, stun, dominate effects at the end of dragons turn

Instinctive X: Basically the dragon gains a bonus attack on initiative +10

I also highly recommend checking out AngryDM's 3-stage boss monster blog: http://angrydm.com/2010/04/the-dd-boss-fight-part-1/

 

[Storminator]

Thanks guys. Looking over Monster Vault gives me what I need. Calastryx is a freaking beast. I'll be using Vestapalk tho. Its powers match up better with how I want the fight to go.

PS

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Level 9 you say? 7 PC's you say? Powerhouses you say?

9x7/4.5=14APL

Calastryx I say! http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4pr/20110606

I would recommend ... no. In theory that's balanced, but in practice, they won't even be able to hit her defenses, which gets frustrating. It was something I learned the hard way in Keep on the Shadowfell. (Even worse back then, when elites and solos got special defense bonuses.)

You're always better off using multiple monsters of around the PCs's levels rather than a single tougher monster.

With that many players, you could use two 9th-level solos, or four 9th-level elites, or some combination thereof. I'd be leery of having any monster be more than 2 levels above (or below) the level of the PCs.

Bitterstrike might be acceptable, along with several of her 8th-level elite vassals. (Bitterstrike is only 1 level above the PCs, and as a brute her AC is actually quite low.)

Alternatively lower the levels of both dragons you're planning on using, but that means some math. (In Calastryx's case, a lot of math.)

 

[Sunseeker]

I would recommend ... no. In theory that's balanced, but in practice, they won't even be able to hit her defenses, which gets frustrating. It was something I learned the hard way in Keep on the Shadowfell. (Even worse back then, when elites and solos got special defense bonuses.)

Her AC is only 26. If they're optimizers as the DM there suggests, then a level 9 fighter with a solid strength(at least 18) will be getting a +4 from half-level, and a +4 from str, lets assume say, a greatsword, which in 4e means a +3 proficiency bonus, we're already looking at a +11 to hit. Make that a +1 weapon and assume they're getting at least a +1 from somewhere else(Weapon Focus or w/e) you're going to be up around +13 to hit. That means you're hitting on a 13, so around 40% of the time.

I think that a 40% chance to hit on a powerful "boss"-type encounter is fair.

You're always better off using multiple monsters of around the PCs's levels rather than a single tougher monster.

Not with optimizers in my experience, at least not unless you are custom building your monsters. Several near-PC-level monsters will have defenses so low they'll hit 80%+ of the time. Which means those critters are going to bit the dust very, very quickly.

With that many players, you could use two 9th-level solos, or four 9th-level elites, or some combination thereof. I'd be leery of having any monster be more than 2 levels above (or below) the level of the PCs.

Remember, APL is calulated by dividing by the "average" number of people in a party, which is 4-5(I use 4.5 in my math), which would put their APL around 14. A "Challenging" encounter should keep the CR around 3 points higher than the party level, which would give us a 12 anyway. Given that CR is so variable on judging the quality of a monster, a 12 can be more and a 14 can be less challenging depending on party makeup, it's stats, etc...

However, I do agree that with a large party, a single turn in the initiative can make the party particularly brutal in layering on effects. But...that is why I recommended Calastryx, because her multiple heads give her multiple turns in the initiative, lessing the impact of many players, who would otherwise be able to act like one giant tactical unit(which 4e encourages).

Alternatively lower the levels of both dragons you're planning on using, but that means some math. (In Calastryx's case, a lot of math.)

If he's got access to DDI, he could use the monster builder to downgrade either one, though it's not perfect, it would at least reduce their to-hit and defenses. However, having played with 4e optimizers in a large party...I think either one would be a fair challenge for a badass boss that would make the players really work for their victory and leave a real possibility of killing some of them.

But.....what the DM here can always do is create a "test" encounter at the PC's before the boss and see how they handle it. That's what I would always do to make sure my challenge calculations were on.

 

[Quickleaf]

I second what [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION] is saying. When it comes to boss fights mano a mano, then higher level solos (L+3 to L+5) preferably with homebrew additions) are the way to go. Especially with a large group of optimizers. I would only equivocate here if you planned on using a much higher level soldier because of the defenses.

 

[Storminator]

I would recommend ... no. In theory that's balanced, but in practice, they won't even be able to hit her defenses, which gets frustrating. It was something I learned the hard way in Keep on the Shadowfell. (Even worse back then, when elites and solos got special defense bonuses.)

They'll torch those defenses. AC of 26, likely to grant CA, means the lowest attacker hits on a 10. The thief will need a 7. The wizard has a bunch of feats and powers poured into juicing up his Magic Missile, so if he has to he can auto hit.

You're always better off using multiple monsters of around the PCs's levels rather than a single tougher monster.

That's how I build most of my fights, so I'm looking for something different.

This will be the third fight after the extended rest (my players and I agreed that for this overland travel scenario there would be no extended rest until they reach their destination - and 2 major power players are out to kill them deader than dead dead dead). I'm going to have a bunch of dangerous terrain that give flying a special advantage and makes those forced movement powers more dangerous.

I'm also interested in seeing how they handle flyers in general. I haven't done a lot of that.

Thanks for the replies guys, and thanks (Psi)SeveredHead for the contrarian advice. Always good to remember the possible pitfalls in your plans . . .

PS

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I am with (Psi)SeveredHead on this, and would highly recommend adding in at least a handful or three of minions. The two biggest issues with solo encounters is having your BBEG pinned or condition-lock. If you are working an aerial encounter then you should be able to keep the mobility up. If you do stick with a single monster, use striker/lurker tactics and avoid getting stuck in place by the defenders and subsequently slaughtered. Its amazing how much damage those defenders can soak!

 

[n00bdragon]

A dragon that can be hit on 7-10s is probably about right. "Torch those defenses" it will not be. Remember that the dragon has a beastly amount of HP they have to grind through so if they only get two or three hits in a round it will still take them a decent while to drop the thing. If you're worried about the dragon's ability to fight back however I've found that the damage for monsters in the MM3 is about right for an average group. If your group is powergaming really hard you could probably give it an extra 25% or so just to be scary. Try to aim for where if the dragon decided it wanted someone in particular dead it could drop a frontline warrior in three attacks. Since your party is level 9 I'll assume your tough guys have around 70 HP or a little more. That means aiming for attacks that deal 25-35 damage is probably a good idea.

Second, I would totally add a smorgasboard of minions and a few regular monsters. A leader of some sort, an elite brute, and about eight to ten minions should be fine. Spread the minions out so they don't get slaughtered by area attacks. Maybe assign two or three to each other monster including the dragon as flunkies who are just there to flank and act as meat shields.

By level 9 your party should have plenty of answers to flying enemies so don't be afraid to have the dragon fly. Even though the dragon's damage output is considerably greater when it lands I would not have it land until the party forces it to land or if it looks like the dragon's goons are getting routed. Always stay in the air and use flyby attacks and ranged attacks when possible to make life hard for the party before flying well out of reach. If the party's formation breaks up you can land on top of the squishiest character, wail on them, and then action point to fly away.

Just don't ever think you are going too hard on them. Characters are far more resilient than most DMs think and well built ones are even tougher than that. Go full force and you'll have a story you can tell for years.