D&D 5E Fixing the Fighter

[Neonchameleon]

D&D Essentials was the first realization WotC had on how bad initial 4e design ideas were and they tried to put the smoke back in the bottle. I applauded them even then for abandoning universal ADEU and beginning the patch-job needed to make 4e salvageable Alas, it appears it came too little, too late, and with an almost schizophrenic method of release (it tried so hard NOT to be the 4.5 it was that it shot itself in the foot on being taken seriously.)

Truly, an all-Essentials game is the only way I'd play, or run, 4e. I fully expected it to be the backbone of 5e (before Next, much to my happiness).

Hah! I applauded Essentials - while at the same time worrying that it would be the basis of D&D Next because it was a return to the Fighters Just Hit Stuff mentality. And back to the game design tropes that work if and only if you are going dungeon exploring as your main source of activity, you have wandering monster checks deliberately to ensure no resting except at a home base, and treat PCs as expendible - the ones that oD&D had and later versions of D&D dropped while not dropping the things this enabled. It even managed to buff the wizard significantly.

 

[B.T.]

Stop shifting the goalposts. You're claiming that 4e has more abstractions but they're not actually that more abstract. Hit points and healing surges are more abstract than hit points without healing surges. Overnight healing, likewise, is a design decision, one that pushes hit pionts into the "more abstract" realm than they were before. Armor Class with Intelligence to AC is more abstract than Armor Class with only Dexterity to AC. Automatically knowing magic item properties without any explanation of why? It's so abstract and unexplained that I can only guess that the short rest involves the PCs experimenting with the item, familiarity with the world, Arcana / Religion checks, etc., but I don't know for sure.

Monster roles--and the calculation of stats based on them--is abstract because monsters are created as they exist in the metagame rather than how the monsters exist in the world. In other editions of D&D, a goblin skirmisher would be a goblin with a bow, whereas a goblin soldier would be a gobiln with armor and a shield. In 4e, the monster's attack and damage change not based on his weapon but based on his role. That is very much abstract.

Oh, and encumbrance rules in 4e, too. Much more abstract.

What I don't get is why you're so vehemently denying this. Sure, there were other abstractions in older editions of D&D, but you're acting like my statement is a criticism of 4e. It's more of a neutral observation. Some people like abstraction. I generally don't, but some of the abstractions in 4e I like. For instance, I'm not much a fan of healing surges, but I think that 5e's HD provide a middle ground for limited, out-of-combat healing that I can get along with.

For every power? How big do you want the PHB to be? The size of an old New York phonebook?

No. I'd rather see fewer, more unique powers. A power that does 3[W] + Strength at first level and another that does 7[W] + Strength at level 29 is redundancy. Why not just give one power that does 3[W] + Strength that scales up to 7[W] + Strength?

 

[Obryn]

I've yet to see an ability you've mentioned (aside from CaGI, which we both agreed is off the table) that can't be replicated by a feat, Expertise, or some system of augmenting attacks.

So, enlighten. What EXACTLY should fighters be getting that can't be replicated by a feat or ED?

I yet to see a feat you've mentioned which does an adequate job of replicating an encounter or daily power, so...

Even the Tide of Iron lookalikes either have too many die rolls, or else are keyed off a weaker attack.

-O

 

[Remathilis]

Hah! I applauded Essentials - while at the same time worrying that it would be the basis of D&D Next because it was a return to the Fighters Just Hit Stuff mentality. And back to the game design tropes that work if and only if you are going dungeon exploring as your main source of activity, you have wandering monster checks deliberately to ensure no resting except at a home base, and treat PCs as expendible - the ones that oD&D had and later versions of D&D dropped while not dropping the things this enabled. It even managed to buff the wizard significantly.

Round here, we called that "getting back to basics!"

 

[Remathilis]

I yet to see a feat you've mentioned which does an adequate job of replicating an encounter or daily power, so...

Even the Tide of Iron lookalikes either have too many die rolls, or else are keyed off a weaker attack.

-O

Oh, I won't argue either feat needed a bit of cleanup, but doing so doesn't invalidate the idea of feat-based powers.

What I keep hearing though is "I should get cool powers AND my full damage potential. And a pony. With a shiny saddle."

So I re-iterate. Start naming SPECIFIC EFFECTS you want. Blind? Dizzy? Slowed? Burning? Charmed? Petrified? Instant-kills? Mountain Jumping? Cloud-walking? Planet-tossing?

 

[B.T.]

If anything, fighters should be the only class getting martial damage dice / combat expertise dice / whatever they're called now.

 

[n00bdragon]

Oh, I won't argue either feat needed a bit of cleanup, but doing so doesn't invalidate the idea of feat-based powers.

What I keep hearing though is "I should get cool powers AND my full damage potential. And a pony. With a shiny saddle."

So I re-iterate. Start naming SPECIFIC EFFECTS you want. Blind? Dizzy? Slowed? Burning? Charmed? Petrified? Instant-kills? Mountain Jumping? Cloud-walking? Planet-tossing?

All of the above and more.

No seriously. A fighter of level X should have just as many (though not the same) options to decide the outcome of a fight and make changes to the narrative of the game as a wizard of level X. Relegating him to "I hit stuff with my sword to deal hit point damage" is not sufficient in a game where casters can do all of those above things.

 

[Obryn]

Oh, I won't argue either feat needed a bit of cleanup, but doing so doesn't invalidate the idea of feat-based powers.

What I keep hearing though is "I should get cool powers AND my full damage potential. And a pony. With a shiny saddle."

So I re-iterate. Start naming SPECIFIC EFFECTS you want. Blind? Dizzy? Slowed? Burning? Charmed? Petrified? Instant-kills? Mountain Jumping? Cloud-walking? Planet-tossing.?

Wow, just when I'd thought we were cutting the hyperbole!

And I really don't see how getting damage and cool effects is a problem? Like I said - something of the level of encounter or daily powers.

-O

 

[Manbearcat]

Really? How?

Decide which powers you consider metagamy and don't take them. Alternatively take one of the Essentials Martial classes - which have no daily powers at all, and very simple boosts as encounter powers (and Stances rather than At Wills).

@Ahnehnois What if you just had this 7th level berserking fighter (the level where you could choose CaGI). No metagame constructs (and the rider effect of the charge even demands a secondary contest). He is an agile combatant, a powerful archer, as well as a hugely damaging two-handed melee combatant. He can wear all armor, has good defenses and huge HPs. His suite of powers only includes Basic Attacks, these 3 Stances, and these 4 Encounter Exploits:

[SBLOCK]

Originally Posted by WotC
[h=1]Berserker's Charge
[/h]You channel your combat fury to run down your foes.

At-Will

Martial, Stance
Minor Action Personal

Effect: You assume the berserker's charge stance. Until the stance ends, you gain a +2 power bonus to your speed when charging and a +2 power bonus to the attack rolls of your charge attacks.


[h=1]Battle Wrath
[/h]You channel your anger into each strike, dealing devastating damage to your foes.

At-Will

Martial, Stance
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You assume the battle wrath stance. Until the stance ends, you gain a +2 power bonus to the damage rolls of basic attacks using a weapon.
Level 11: +3 power bonus.
Level 21: +4 power bonus.



[h=1]Duelist's Assault
[/h]You focus your attention on a lone enemy, tearing into it with deadly force.

At-Will

Martial, Stance
Minor Action Personal

Effect: You assume the duelist’s assault stance. Until the stance ends, you gain a +4 power bonus to melee weapon damage rolls with basic attacks against a target that has no creatures adjacent to it other than you.
Level 11: +6 power bonus.
Level 21: +8 power bonus.



[h=1]Sudden Sprint
[/h]You put on a burst of speed as you launch yourself toward a foe.

Encounter

Martial
Minor Action Personal

Prerequisite: You must have training in Athletics.

Effect: You move a number of squares up to your Dexterity modifier to a square adjacent to an enemy.


[h=1]Line Breaker
[/h]You turn aside your enemies’ attacks as you advance across the battlefield.

Encounter

Martial
Move Action Personal
Prerequisite: You must have training in Athletics.
Effect: You move up to your speed. During this movement, you gain a +5 power bonus to all defenses against opportunity attacks.


[h=1]Fox's Cunning
[/h]Using the momentum from your enemy’s blow to fall back or slip to one side, you make a sudden retaliatory attack as he stumbles to regain his composure

Encounter

Martial, Weapon
Immediate Reaction Melee or Ranged weapon

Trigger: An enemy makes a melee attack against you
Attack: You can shift 1 square, then make a basic attack against the enemy.

Special: Gain a power bonus to your basic attack roll equal to your Wisdom modifier.


[h=1]Bull Charge
[/h]You run into your enemy, taking a brutal swing. Your force knocks your enemy backward and to the ground, allowing you to step forward.

Encounter

Invigorating, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Primary Attack: Strength vs. Fortitude
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the target 1 square. You then shift 1 square to a square the target vacated. Make a secondary attack against the target.
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. Fortitude
Hit: You knock the target prone.
Special: When charging, you can use this power in place of a melee basic attack.

[/SBLOCK]

 

[JamesonCourage]

So, enlighten. What EXACTLY should fighters be getting that can't be replicated by a feat or ED?

I yet to see a feat you've mentioned which does an adequate job of replicating an encounter or daily power, so...

Even the Tide of Iron lookalikes either have too many die rolls, or else are keyed off a weaker attack.

No offense, but isn't that sidestepping his question? Wouldn't a feat that reduced the die rolls or keyed off a stronger attack (or used Expertise Dice effectively, etc.) work? As always, play what you like

Ahnehnois What if you just had this 7th level berserking fighter (the level where you could choose CaGI). No metagame constructs (and the rider effect of the charge even demands a secondary contest). He is an agile combatant, a powerful archer, as well as a hugely damaging two-handed melee combatant. He can wear all armor, has good defenses and huge HPs. His suite of powers only includes Basic Attacks, these 3 Stances, and these 4 Encounter Exploits:

I'm not Ahnehnois, but I think that the encounter powers are probably going to be a hangup on his request to avoid a metagame character. Any way to avoid that in 4e? I ask honestly (maybe Essentials?). As always, play what you like