D&D 5E Fixing the Fighter

[Ahnehnois]

I'm not Ahnehnois, but I think that the encounter powers are probably going to be a hangup on his request to avoid a metagame character. Any way to avoid that in 4e? I ask honestly (maybe Essentials?).

Pretty much what I was going to say to [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] 's example. The "encounter" powers are pretty clearly not explicable in the context of the game world.

Even setting that aside, that's a build that requires quite a bit of effort to get that "basic". Not exactly what most 4e fighters look like, and I believe this is essentials, meaning that it's a relatively late addition to the game and a relatively small subset of it.

I'm not Ahnehnois

Well, neither am I. He's just my online alias.

 

[Obryn]

No offense, but isn't that sidestepping his question? Wouldn't a feat that reduced the die rolls or keyed off a stronger attack (or used Expertise Dice effectively, etc.) work? As always, play what you like

I'm not Ahnehnois, but I think that the encounter powers are probably going to be a hangup on his request to avoid a metagame character. Any way to avoid that in 4e? I ask honestly (maybe Essentials?). As always, play what you like

That's just it - I have yet to see such a feat. My grave concerns are how to balance such a scheme, because at-will+too strong is just as bad as at-will but too weak.

If daily and encounter powers are ruled out, where are the mightier effects coming in? A short list would be (in 4e terms) blind, daze, stun, immobilized, restrained, weakened, pushed, prone, multi-attacks, effects to help defending, and - if instant death is in the game at all, which is still debatable, that as well. And the Fighter shouldn't have to wait until crazy levels for much of it.

-O

 

[Remathilis]

That's just it - I have yet to see such a feat. My grave concerns are how to balance such a scheme, because at-will+too strong is just as bad as at-will but too weak.

If daily and encounter powers are ruled out, where are the mightier effects coming in? A short list would be (in 4e terms) blind, daze, stun, immobilized, restrained, weakened, pushed, prone, multi-attacks, effects to help defending, and - if instant death is in the game at all, which is still debatable, that as well. And the Fighter shouldn't have to wait until crazy levels for much of it.

-O

So the problem in a nutshell is:

Obryn:
* Applies some status effect beneficial to self/allies and/or harmful to foes.
* Does not sacrifice attack ability, accuracy, or damage.
* Is limited in uses per day.

Remathilis
* Applies some status effect beneficial to self/allies and/or harmful to foes.
* Sacrifices accuracy (called shot). attack ability (combat maneuver), or damage (expertise dice) to use
* Is not limited in use.

 

[Obryn]

So the problem in a nutshell is:

Obryn:
* Applies some status effect beneficial to self/allies and/or harmful to foes.
* Does not sacrifice attack ability, accuracy, or damage.
* Is limited in uses per day.

Remathilis
* Applies some status effect beneficial to self/allies and/or harmful to foes.
* Sacrifices accuracy (called shot). attack ability (combat maneuver), or damage (expertise dice) to use
* Is not limited in use.

Apart from the fact that I think limited in use somehow (per day, encounter, minute, recharge rolls, whatever) allows for a greater range of potential special effects with actual chances of happening, that's fair.

-O

 

[ForeverSlayer]

In fairness, while there are indeed some who prefer fighters to be a crappy noob class, there are at least a few here who want a more capable fighter but have concerns related to the degree the metagame should play in it. I think it's a simple, elegant solution, but I can understand how some others in good faith would disagree.

-O

Please describe the fighter you are talking about because I am curious. You are talking about the fighter as being a "noob" class so please fill us in as to which one you are talking about.

 

[Ahnehnois]

That's just it - I have yet to see such a feat. My grave concerns are how to balance such a scheme, because at-will+too strong is just as bad as at-will but too weak.

If daily and encounter powers are ruled out, where are the mightier effects coming in? A short list would be (in 4e terms) blind, daze, stun, immobilized, restrained, weakened, pushed, prone, multi-attacks, effects to help defending, and - if instant death is in the game at all, which is still debatable, that as well. And the Fighter shouldn't have to wait until crazy levels for much of it.

Some legitimate concerns, but I don't think the frequency of use is at issue. Characters frequently will face only a few rounds of combat in a day, and even fewer of those will be high-leverage rounds where these kinds of things matter. Limiting use has never been a particularly effective balancing tool; if something is unbalanced, it is thus even if it only happens once.

That said, creating a reasonable scheme that allows characters to access these types of effects and rewards level gain and character choice is a challenge.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Double post

 

[Obryn]

Some legitimate concerns, but I don't think the frequency of use is at issue. Characters frequently will face only a few rounds of combat in a day, and even fewer of those will be high-leverage rounds where these kinds of things matter. Limiting use has never been a particularly effective balancing tool; if something is unbalanced, it is thus even if it only happens once.

Well, sure, if it's unbalanced. I'm talking powerful, not unbalanced!

-O

 

[timASW]

If anything, fighters should be the only class getting martial damage dice / combat expertise dice / whatever they're called now.

I completely agree with this. When it was the new, cool fighter mechanic it was a great step in the right direction. Then apparently the designers thought to themselves "if its cool for the fighter it will be cool for everyone, expertise dice all around". And now the fighters not special again.......

 

[timASW]

All of the above and more.

No seriously. A fighter of level X should have just as many (though not the same) options to decide the outcome of a fight and make changes to the narrative of the game as a wizard of level X.

No he should not.

Relegating him to "I hit stuff with my sword to deal hit point damage" is not sufficient in a game where casters can do all of those above things.

Yes it is. Do you know why? Because thats what that player WANTS to do. Thats why he chose a fighter. No one put a gun to his head and said "your a fighter now or else". The fighters limitations and theme are absolutely clear even to a total noob just be glancing at the book. If they wanted to do wizard things they would have chosen a wizard. They did not. And it wasnt an accident or being a dumbass.

It was a player making a conscious choice to play a class thats simple, physical and believable rather then a magic user. Thats a choice that should be respected and possible in future editions.

Not every character needs to have powers like one of the X-men to be worthy.