D&D 5E First Level Hit Points Need to Increase

[JamesonCourage]

My current system does 1st level hit points as HD+Con Bonus+Size Bonus (8 for a medium-sized creature). Since PC's at least get max hit points at first level as a result of being Heros, this means that PC's tend to have between 12 and 24 hit points at first level. Since they don't die until -10, and since most attacks do 1 die of damage, this tends to make them very durable. Tying the hit points to size also resolves the problem of famous house cat problem (too little distinction between a house cat and its owner) and other issues like the whale problem (large creatures requiring massive hit die to reflect their durability, but gaining all the other benefits of HD as well).

That's a cool idea. The HP bonus based on size.

In my RPG, I also tried to tackle the issue, but I went about it through other methods. In my game, you deal +4 damage per size larger you are. So, cats might deal very little damage to most things (based on their natural attack), but they deal +4 damage to rats, say, almost killing / killing them instantly. And, in that vein, humans with clubs would kill rats, cats, and the like easily enough (+12 / +8 damage), with things like dogs being wounded easier, but not quite as easily (+4 damage for small dogs).

That said, I also have a feat that grants DR/ER against smaller creatures, and it's not uncommon for me to work it into races or creatures I make. Humans rarely take lethal wounds from cats; the DR protects them. If something can wound them past it, occasionally, that might be covered by a sort of armor penetration the creature possesses, or by a lucky critical attack (lack a cat honestly wounding a human, as compared to scratching the crap out of them).

But, like your solution (though drastically different in implementation), I also offer a feat that gives a bonus to HP based on size, but only per size above medium (I also often work this in racially to creatures or races). So, larger creatures can more easily be durable, and fight off smaller creatures, while also damaging smaller creatures more easily.

It does however have a problem I haven't figured out what I'm going to do about and which I mentally refer to as the 'deer problem'. At an average of 12-24 hit points, first level characters can take on average 3d6 to 6d6 damage before even being in danger of dying. This means that in general, it's hard to one shot even a 1HD target without a critical hit. Thus, how do 1st level humans hunt game like deer? A 1HD animal is no longer threatened by a 1HD weapon. A 1HD soldier requires multiple attacks with 1HD weapons to stagger or kill. It hasn't been a huge problem of me, but it nags on me, and I can see why some people wouldn't want to put it into their game.

This is also something I thought about for my RPG. I allow bonus damage dice when beating AC (for each 5 you beat it by, roll another base damage die -no Str bonus, etc.), though that damage die is reduced by DR separately. So, if I attacked a deer's ACvS (AC vs Surprise, in my game, or flat-footed in 3.X, I think), its AC drops tremendously, and it's a lot easier for me to rack up those extra damage dice. Throw in an ability like sneak attack (and called shots, in my game), and you can take one down easily enough in one shot.

Not sure if that'd work in your game, though. I don't know if you have armor give damage reduction (it gives both DR and AC in my games), so the extra damage die thing gets iffy. And, you give HP based on size, and that's going to buff that deer up... maybe your Hunter class gets a coup de grace / auto crit / death attack ability with some sort of setup shot on flat-footed creatures, if it makes a successful check against them? I don't know your skills, but I'm thinking something like a Knowledge (nature) or Heal check, or something, for animals, if we're going by 3.X skills.

Anyways, this could easily be its own topic, even if not many people have much interest in it. Oh, how I miss the old House Rules sub-forum. So many interesting things in there. As always, play what you like

 

[Warbringer]

[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION]

most people can't one shot a deer without extreme luck; instead, it's surprise, a high powered weapon and training ... think a ranger with favored for "dinner" ...

Alternatively, make coup de grace on "surprised" not "helpless" and a fort save vs damage done ... takes care of low hd vs low hd... if no surprise, low hd vs low hd is a multi-round combat

 

[Celebrim]

That's a cool idea. The HP bonus based on size.

In my RPG, I also tried to tackle the issue, but I went about it through other methods. In my game, you deal +4 damage per size larger you are.

Actually, that's a cool idea too. On some levels its cooler than mine. On other fronts, mine works better - for example, yours doesn't deal with differentiating between a wasp, mouse, and rat quite as well as mine does. Also, you're solution really puts small sized races at a major disadvantage. You've given me something to think about though.

This is also something I thought about for my RPG. I allow bonus damage dice when beating AC (for each 5 you beat it by, roll another base damage die -no Str bonus, etc.), though that damage die is reduced by DR separately. So, if I attacked a deer's ACvS (AC vs Surprise, in my game, or flat-footed in 3.X, I think), its AC drops tremendously, and it's a lot easier for me to rack up those extra damage dice. Throw in an ability like sneak attack (and called shots, in my game), and you can take one down easily enough in one shot.

I've thought about similar systems for rewarding quality hits, but I dislike the introduction of so much complexity simply to try to solve a problem of mere physical realism. I've been down that path before. That way leads to madness (well, not really, more like insane over detailing). The cure seems worse than the disease. If I was going for gritty, I'd probably do something more like D20 Call of Cthulu and play with the death from massive trauma rules.

 

[Celebrim]

[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION]
most people can't one shot a deer without extreme luck;

I know you are trying to help, but I grew up in a place where opening day of deer season was a school holiday, nobody but us nerds would show up for class even in the first week (we played D&D, because the teachers were annoyed with us for showing up and didn't want to teach), and kids would come to school off the deer stand.

I know how a deer is usually killed with a bow IRL, and the problem is that it doesn't really work under a hit point system. D&D doesn't really do 'bleeding to death' really well, or even at all until you get the target below 0 hit points.

Alternatively, make coup de grace on "surprised" not "helpless"...

That's a huge can of worms that I don't want to open up just to deal with a minor problem of versimiltude to setting. For now, I'm just assuming in this setting that most deer hunting involves putting multiple arrows into a deer, tracking down the wounded animal and hitting it again. That's not that far from real life, and as long as it isn't bothering my players it isn't a huge problem.

 

[Obryn]

My biggest gripe with HP as they stand is that we're STILL adding Con mod every level, undermining the actual value of your hit die and giving certain classes yet another ability they can't scrimp on. It's fine for spellcasters though, they can prioritise Con second in almost all cases.

Yes, this. Adding the Con bonus every level just serves to make Con altogether too critical.

-O

 

[JamesonCourage]

Actually, that's a cool idea too. On some levels its cooler than mine. On other fronts, mine works better - for example, yours doesn't deal with differentiating between a wasp, mouse, and rat quite as well as mine does. Also, you're solution really puts small sized races at a major disadvantage. You've given me something to think about though.

Right, the line between mechanical nuance and over-complication is a hard one for me to balance. I think I'd likely handle a wasp by just giving it a flaw that reduces its damage die, or something. Probably approach it from a race-perspective (even if I didn't writes wasps out, and just assumed "wasps can't really mortally wound people with their stings unless they're in groups or the person is allergic, or something").

I've thought about similar systems for rewarding quality hits, but I dislike the introduction of so much complexity simply to try to solve a problem of mere physical realism. I've been down that path before. That way leads to madness (well, not really, more like insane over detailing). The cure seems worse than the disease. If I was going for gritty, I'd probably do something more like D20 Call of Cthulu and play with the death from massive trauma rules.

Yeah, here we run into nuance and overly complicated mechanics. Hard for me to find a perfect balance. So I get where you're coming from. Though my system is complicated, and I'm pretty much okay with it. I don't mind having called shots, or broken bone rules (not ability damage, like I think you've said you prefer), or whatever. Though, honestly, I am going for relatively gritty (like, say, Game of Thrones), though I also use a Luck Point system to give the players some survivability.

Anyways, glad I gave you something to ponder, at least. I think both of us have probably spent enough time on our systems that it's always nice to have something to think about, even if it has some pitfalls (small races being a lot squishier, for example -it's both what you're looking for and not, at the same time, perhaps [generic "you" there]). As always, play what you like

 

[GX.Sigma]

Yes, this. Adding the Con bonus every level just serves to make Con altogether too critical.

-O

In my experience with playtesting, it's not so much that the Con modifier is added to HP, but that Con modifies every Hit Die you use for self-healing. I've seen two characters with negative Con modifiers, and in one case a character lost HP by healing (and by many of the alternate healing rules, wouldn't ever be able to naturally slow-heal).

 

[Celebrim]

Right, the line between mechanical nuance and over-complication is a hard one for me to balance. I think I'd likely handle a wasp by just giving it a flaw that reduces its damage die, or something.

The particular issue with wasps has do with if a 1HD creature can represent a hero (the PC's), then there isn't a lot of room beneath that of a PC to provide graduated distinctions between other creatures without resorting to fractions. For example, you could concievably have a situation where an adult (1 HD), a child (1/2 HD), a rat (1/2 HD??), a mouse (1/4HD), and a wasp (1/8 HD) all had the same hit points - '1'. Worse, they could all do the same amount of damage on an attack - '1'. So, now the adult farmer, the child, the rat, the mouse, and the wasp all are capable of killing each other with a single blow. Clearly the wasp ought to be represented by values much less than '1', but without doing some sort of fractional accounting - "Take 1/10th of a hit point in damage" - that's hard to represent. Also, even if you could find a way to represent it, describing what happens when the wasp is the target of an 'Enlarge Creature' spell isn't easy. That later sort of problem, trying to come up with rules that described changes in strength or HD, is what wrecked my attempts at a resolution to this in 1e (it involved treating numbers like 1d2-3 as representing a percentage chance to do 1 damage, rather than a 0 or a 1). Now that I've got more tools, I might come back to it.

For the moment though, the 'house cat problem' (what to do with numbers smaller than 1) isn't my big problem. Given creatures hit points as a result of size means that the wasp can't easily kill the mouse, the mouse can't easily kill the cat, and the cat can't easily kill the farmer with his hoe because they have steadily increasing hit points guaranteed. It's good enough for the moment.

 

[darjr]

I didn't think I would like it. But now that I've thought about it, removing con mod as a bonus to HP sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[Sunseeker]

Yes, this. Adding the Con bonus every level just serves to make Con altogether too critical.

-O

Shouldn't it be? Shouldn't people going out into the world, enduring dangerous weather, deadly diseases, famine, fighting monsters on a regular basis be fairly tough?

And if we don't go the 4e route of allowing different classes to utilize different ability scores as damage modifiers or for to-hit bonuses, then what role does Con serve at all?

If HP gain is fixed(either a flat value or HD per level, or some combination thereof), and Con serves no role other than to determine fortitude defense/saves, then why not simply eliminate it entirely? Giving players some tangible benefit beyond their fort save though choosing to buff their con at the expense of another score is a good thing IMO, at least as long as we're intending to keep the 6-stat system and con being a part of that.

Otherwise if all Con does is modify the fort save, we might as well just use some other score that's more relevant to the overall game(like strength) and eliminate con entirely.