Planescape Do You Care About Planescape Lore?

[GX.Sigma]

So, we are forced to kowtow to Planescape, despite none of the material actually showing up in core D&D in any edition.

As far as I know, Yugoloths themselves have never shown up in core D&D in any edition. So that's a bit like complaining that you have to know Realms lore to understand Elminster's life story.

 

[Weather Report]

As far as I know, Yugoloths themselves have never shown up in core D&D in any edition.

Well, they were in the 1st Ed MM 2, just called Daemons.

 

[Hussar]

Actually, they show up in the 1e Fiend Folio. Nycadaemons and Mezzodaemons first IIRC.

Now, since you cross posted Weather Report, I'll cross post my response:

Quote Originally Posted by Weather Report View Post
That's not true; 1st Ed PHB, DMG, MM, MM 2, Deities & Demigods, Manual of the Planes. Planescape just slathered the core D&D Multiverse with the whole Sigil/Factions/Lady of Pain/slang, etc, sauce.

What?

Sigil doesn't appear until 1994. Factions and all of that don't appear until 2e.

There is Great Wheel Cosmology in 1e books. Totally agree there. But, there is nothing about Planescape in any of those books.

Just to be straight here, I have nothing against the Great Wheel. It's Planescape that I find grating. Mostly its being forced to incorporate Planescape lore into the core cosmology just to pander to a very vocal group of gamers.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Well, they were in the 1st Ed MM 2, just called Daemons.

Actually, they show up in the 1e Fiend Folio. Nycadaemons and Mezzodaemons first IIRC.

Technically they first showed up in Vault of the Drow. But do you consider any of those "core?"

What?

Sigil doesn't appear until 1994. Factions and all of that don't appear until 2e.

There is Great Wheel Cosmology in 1e books. Totally agree there. But, there is nothing about Planescape in any of those books.

That's what he's saying in that quote: the only things Planescape added were Sigil and the factions.

 

[Weather Report]

What?

Sigil doesn't appear until 1994. Factions and all of that don't appear until 2e.

There is Great Wheel Cosmology in 1e books. Totally agree there. But, there is nothing about Planescape in any of those books.

That's exactly what I mean, Planscape just added some window dressing to the core D&D multiverse, we agree.

I don't want the Lady of Pain forced into your living room.

 

[RichGreen]

Hi,

I think James Wyatt has got a very tricky job to do. He has to come up with updated 5e mechanics and story text that keep the core of what a particular monster is all about (often one that's been around nearly 40 years through multiple editions) and somehow deal with the inconsistencies that have cropped up over the years (two arms vs four arms for mezzodaemons/loths for example). I think he's approaching things in the right way with his articles, and the polls, and the monster backstories are heading in the right direction. What we don't want is a bland MM like the 4e one with virtually no lore for each monster and some badly thought out monster groups for encounters.

For the planar monsters, and how tied to Planescape lore, they should be, I think it is good to employ the Rule of Cool. If the backstory for a monster was cool – let's take the Great Modron March as an example – this is a great story element to reference in a 5e Monster Manual's monster description. Planescape had a lot of cool lore that's worth including to add flavour to the monsters and in most cases this can be done in a way that doesn't imply the existence of Planescape tropes like Sigil, the factions, the cant etc.

I totally agree that the Blood War, yugoloths being mercenaries and so on is contentious. They do need to be given some motivation though which is why I think keeping the scheming arcanoloths and the return of the Oinodaemon are a good idea. I don't think anyone other than the hardcore Planescape fans will care much about the godless thing.

Hussar, do you think you could give an example of the story text you would like to see for a planar monster?

Cheers


Rich

 

[Hussar]

That's exactly what I mean, Planscape just added some window dressing to the core D&D multiverse, we agree.

I don't want the Lady of Pain forced into your living room.

But, that's the thing. It's not just "window dressing".

Quick, name 3 pre-4e modules that have an eladrin in them, outside of a Planescape module. I can think of one that comes from the tail end of Paizo's Savage Tide AP. But, outside of that? Nothing.

Yet, people are still bothered by the fact that eladrin means grey elf in 4e. But, if you take Planescape out of the equation, all they've done is take some obscure monster that was virtually never used, and repackaged it as a player race. But, since that counters Planescape lore, we have been told that 4e is doing it wrong.

On and on with every single monster. Yugoloths have to hate the gods or they aren't yugoloths. Thing is, in core, yugoloths never hated gods. That's pure Planescape setting canon. Yet, we are going to be repeatedly reminded of this unless we make sure that every single Yugoloth entry in 5e squares with Planescape canon.

Hi,
/snip
Hussar, do you think you could give an example of the story text you would like to see for a planar monster?

Cheers


Rich

By and large, planar monsters in the Monster Manual shouldn't have any more "story text" than any other monster. Why should they? If the Yugoloth's schtick is "They hate gods" then fine, that's a cool enough schtick. But, we must have god hating yugoloths so that they square with Planescape lore isn't fine. That's the problem with Yugoloths as mercenaries. Mercenaries in what fight? Take a look at the original Fiend Folio entry for Mezzodaemon:

Mezzodaemons inhabit the Lower Planes between the Abyssal Layers and the Hells - i.e. Tarterus, Hades, Gehenna. There they will be found in numbers. They freely associate with night hags and demons, (see ADVANCED DUNGEONS& DRAGONS MONSTER MANUAL), and are not averse to devils though they find the devils' strict regulations very tiresome. Mezzodaemons roam the Astral and Ethereal Planes at times and it is not too difficult to summon them to the Prime Material Plane, as they enjoy wreaking havoc here and they are willing to associate with evil humans and the like if the price is right and their 'superior' position is generally recognised

That works for me. Now they have a mercenary schtick (note this doesn't apply to daemons, but only to Mezzodaemons) and a pretty decent reason for using them in an adventure.

To me, this is a yugoloth description based on the Great Wheel but completely devoid of any reference to the Blood War.

 

[Weather Report]

1) Quick, name 3 pre-4e modules that have an eladrin in them.

2) Yet, people are still bothered by the fact that eladrin means grey elf in 4e.

3) But, if you take Planescape out of the equation, all they've done is take some obscure monster that was virtually never used, and repackaged it as a player race.

4) But, since that counters Planescape lore, we have been told that 4e is doing it wrong.

5) Yet, we are going to be repeatedly reminded of this unless we make sure that every single Yugoloth entry in 5e squares with Planescape canon.

1) What does that have to do with anything.

2) Yeah, that was cheap, stealing the cool name from a race of Exemplars of alignment (with 2 editions of legacy).

3) Not true, some of use Eladrin (quite extensively; and they are not as obscure as you are suggesting), some people never use Hill giants, big dif.

4) Who is "we", and "who" is telling you this?

5) Again who, what, when? The god-hating thing is low down on the totem-poll for me.

 

[RichGreen]

Quick, name 3 pre-4e modules that have an eladrin in them, outside of a Planescape module. I can think of one that comes from the tail end of Paizo's Savage Tide AP. But, outside of that? Nothing.

Yet, people are still bothered by the fact that eladrin means grey elf in 4e. But, if you take Planescape out of the equation, all they've done is take some obscure monster that was virtually never used, and repackaged it as a player race. But, since that counters Planescape lore, we have been told that 4e is doing it wrong.

I'm with you on the eladrin – following the Rule of Cool, the 4e changes with the eladrin as high elves and rulers of the Feywild were much better IMHO.

By and large, planar monsters in the Monster Manual shouldn't have any more "story text" than any other monster. Why should they? If the Yugoloth's schtick is "They hate gods" then fine, that's a cool enough schtick. But, we must have god hating yugoloths so that they square with Planescape lore isn't fine. That's the problem with Yugoloths as mercenaries. Mercenaries in what fight? Take a look at the original Fiend Folio entry for Mezzodaemon:



That works for me. Now they have a mercenary schtick (note this doesn't apply to daemons, but only to Mezzodaemons) and a pretty decent reason for using them in an adventure.

To me, this is a yugoloth description based on the Great Wheel but completely devoid of any reference to the Blood War.

I don't think planar monsters should have a longer amount of story text than others but I really hope the 5e MM has something more interesting to say than that short description. I think the Monster Vault got it right in terms of story text for monsters.

Cheers


Rich

 

[GX.Sigma]

Quick, name 3 pre-4e modules that have an eladrin in them, outside of a Planescape module. I can think of one that comes from the tail end of Paizo's Savage Tide AP. But, outside of that? Nothing.

Yet, people are still bothered by the fact that eladrin means grey elf in 4e. But, if you take Planescape out of the equation, all they've done is take some obscure monster that was virtually never used, and repackaged it as a player race. But, since that counters Planescape lore, we have been told that 4e is doing it wrong.

The same would be true of any setting-specific creature. Name 3 pre-4e modules that have a Giff in them, outside of a Spelljammer module. Yet, I bet people would be bothered if Giff meant Deep Gnome in 4e.