D&D 5E [Warlords] Should D&D be tied to D&D Worlds?

[billd91]

It's not a case of despising magic. It's a case of despising the idea that magic is the source of all awesome--that only casters and supernatural creatures should be capable of epic feats. And correspondingly, the idea that anyone without magic should be a mere lackey or sidekick.

Why does nobody consider what fighters in D&D do epic? It's pretty unrealistic what they can do, the damage they can mete out and withstand.

 

[billd91]

No kidding. There's no way I'd run a game without at least vp/wp, if not more. Playing with hp is unthinkable.

The pre-Saga edition Star Wars games cured me of any illusions that vp/wp were significantly better than hit points.

 

[Ahnehnois]

The pre-Saga edition Star Wars games cured me of any illusions that vp/wp were significantly better than hit points.

Can't say I know much about SW.

I know how it works in my game though.

The frontier for me is actual injuries, not the vp/wp distinction.

 

[Obryn]

What's a "modern" game and what does magic being the source of really outlandish powers have to do with whether a game is modern or not?

Narrative control and player fiat, for two. Not being ashamed of your metagame layer is another.

Why does nobody consider what fighters in D&D do epic? It's pretty unrealistic what they can do, the damage they can mete out and withstand.

The problem is, that's all they do.

-O

 

[pemerton]

Thanks for acknowledging that!

That's not a problem. I hadn't thought that particular issue was in disupte since 2008 or so.

From my point of view, most hp and/or 4e thread since around that time have basically involved pointing out that those of us who don't prioritise imagination of the ingame situation, but who rather want to experience the ingame situation in a proxy fashion (eg feeling desparate when our PCs are desparate, making choices under constraint when our PCs must make choices under constraint, etc), are nevertheless roleplaying and not playing a boardgame.

 

[Mike Eagling]

The problem is, that's all [fighters] do.

I view that as an implication of using a class-based game system. Fighters hit things. Wizards magic things. Thieves/Rogues sneak about doing stuff that the others don't.

Admittedly, clerics kind of break things by being half decent fighters with support magic.

 

[pemerton]

What about the bloodied condition? Its name seems to indicate that hit points = physical wounds.

"Bloodied" to me (as I recently explained in another post, upthread or in another thread) has always been "first blood"

Likewise. (Although there can be exceptions, like OG poison damage delivered to an otherwise unbloodied PC - this also suggests some sort of blood has been drawn.)

"Bloodied" indicates that a certain hit-point-loss-event - namely, the one that bloodies a character - corresponds to a certain infiction event - namely, blood being drawn. But that doesn't mean that all hit point loss corresponds to such an infiction event, or that all hit point loss that (in number, attack mode etc) corresponds to or resembles the particular hit point loss that led to bloodying corresponds to such an infiction event.

Ie hit points, in 4e at least, are fortune-in-the-middle.

 

[Obryn]

I view that as an implication of using a class-based game system. Fighters hit things. Wizards magic things. Thieves/Rogues sneak about doing stuff that the others don't.

The issue is that "magic things" is so entirely broad, covering the entirety of everything physically possible and impossible. And "hit things" is so incredibly narrow, particularly when the main expression of that is hit point damage rather than special effects.

I love hewing closely to a class-based system. It's the entire point of D&D, IMO, and one of the main reasons I'm no longer a fan of 3.x. But that's not sufficient reason for one class to have Wish and the other class to swing a sword an extra time. The player's control over the game's narrative shouldn't be restricted by their inability to magic stuff, in other words.

-O

 

[Mike Eagling]

The player's control over the game's narrative shouldn't be restricted by their inability to magic stuff, in other words.

That's fair enough. It doesn't really chime with my experience but I can appreciate where you're coming from

 

[Starfox]

That's my recollection of it at least. Trying to get those folks to move back to HPs after those systems was akin to teaching a fish to ride a bicycle.

No kidding. There's no way I'd run a game without at least vp/wp, if not more. Playing with hp is unthinkable.

To each his own. I've tried various health track/vp systems, but in my current homebrew I have something very much like hit points and when I play Pathfinder, I use the baseline hp rules found there. And that's after 34 years of Player/DM experience.