When is a lack of bonus a penalty?

[Morrus]

But you're okay with them getting a long list of race specific special abilities while humans get a flat "N/A" in that line?

I am?

 

[Umbran]

I think "the baseline" is largely illusory. It isn't like your game is going to have a statistically relevant number of characters from which you can derive a population average worth a darn. Thus, "baseline" is a line you draw in the sand for your own reasons, which may be more about your preconceptions than about how the game actually plays. In my opinion, the baseline is better drawn in reference to the mechanics, rather than imagined/expected populations.

We should also ask about whether we care about penalties, or about *meaningful* penalties. In 3e, for example, you didn't generally see racial stat modifiers of +/-1 for a reason.

One should, of course, take ability score bonuses and penalties in context - what else does the race get? If you're whining about getting a relative -1 to all stats, but you get to cast Wish once a day for free, I'm going to laugh in your face (like this - "HahahaaHAHAHAhaha!").

 

[MarkB]

But you're okay with them getting a long list of race specific special abilities while humans get a flat "N/A" in that line? Why would anyone choose to be a human if they can potentially be better than a human at any stats that matter to their character (at the cost of being worse at a stat that frankly doesn't matter?) and get a pile of nifty not-found-anywhere-else abilities to boot?

D&DN's tying of both saves and 'skill' checks directly to ability scores increases the relevance of every ability score for all characters. And +1 to an ability score is worth quite a lot, as was quickly established when WotC announced that they'd be using ability score increases as the "default" feats for the lowest-complexity version of the game. It was quickly agreed, even by WotC themselves, that DDN's feats would have to be significantly more powerful than those of 3e or 4e if they were to be considered equivalent to a +1 ability score boost.

Unless the non-human races' special abilities are similarly powerful, they'll have trouble keeping up with the humans' boosted stats.

 

[n00bdragon]

D&DN's tying of both saves and 'skill' checks directly to ability scores increases the relevance of every ability score for all characters. And +1 to an ability score is worth quite a lot, as was quickly established when WotC announced that they'd be using ability score increases as the "default" feats for the lowest-complexity version of the game. It was quickly agreed, even by WotC themselves, that DDN's feats would have to be significantly more powerful than those of 3e or 4e if they were to be considered equivalent to a +1 ability score boost.

Unless the non-human races' special abilities are similarly powerful, they'll have trouble keeping up with the humans' boosted stats.

The difference is though if you're a wizard a +1 Intelligence means a lot more than a +1 Strength. Likewise if you had an item that gave +4 Intelligence to the wearer but only fighters could use it the item would probably be rather underpowered. Give it to a wizard and you just broke the game.

Stats mean different things to different characters. A +1 here is not worth the same as a +1 there. This is why not having a bonus in the right place is as bad as a penalty and why a penalty in a place you don't care about it is not a penalty at all.

 

[MarkB]

The difference is though if you're a wizard a +1 Intelligence means a lot more than a +1 Strength. Likewise if you had an item that gave +4 Intelligence to the wearer but only fighters could use it the item would probably be rather underpowered. Give it to a wizard and you just broke the game.

Stats mean different things to different characters. A +1 here is not worth the same as a +1 there. This is why not having a bonus in the right place is as bad as a penalty and why a penalty in a place you don't care about it is not a penalty at all.

It's also dependent upon which method you use to generate ability scores. If you're using point-buy, then unless you're happy to have the bare minimum in everything but your primary ability score, every bonus you get is one less point you have to spend out of your point-buy, and thus one more to contribute towards your primary scores.

 

[drothgery]

I guess it depends on the implementation. The way 4e does it (where most races have one fixed +2 and one +2 where you can choose between two stats, except humans with one freely assignable +2) there's one kind of understated effect -- the stat range for 'normal' races isn't baseline-2 to baseline+2; it's baseline to baseline+2. So there's a lot less swing between the best and worst 'normal' PC race. Next's approach (as of the last time I looked at), though, with humans getting a +1 to everything, seems to effectively give nonhumans hidden penalties.

 

[Mark CMG]

If you have two races. One gets a +1 to STR; the other doesn't. You could easily say that the first race has a STR penalty as much as you could say that the second has a bonus.

The culture of envy that leads to that suggestion makes team-building one of the more difficult aspects of tabletop roleplaying games.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

If you have two races. One gets a +1 to STR; the other doesn't. You could easily say that the first race has a STR penalty as much as you could say that the second has a bonus...

There are areas of the game where the lack of bonus is absolutely a penalty, but I agree that in the case of racial mods, it's all largely psychological.

Heck, just consider ability scores vs. ability modifiers. I believe the distinction exists, especially in WotC D&D, to create a psychological impact on players while providing minimal actual differentiation. For example, players look at the elf's Dex bonus and think "Whoa, a +2 bonus?! I can pull some crazy Legolas moves with that!" Even though it's really just a +1 to appropriate rolls, and confers no ability to perform awesome cgi stunts.

Anyway, I haven't looked at a playtest packet in a while, but what you describe does sound...very odd.