D&D 5E L&L 1/7/2013 The Many Worlds of D&D

[Shemeska]

I also don't understand why Planescape's riding roughshod over (or reinterpreting, if you prefer) prior AD&D lore is to be embraced, whereas 4e's doing the same thing must be repduiated.

Constructive versus destructive change. 2e/Planescape added detail onto the 1e AD&D planes for which previously there wasn't a lot of detail in 1e, and the 2e additions by and large didn't replace or invalidate 1e material. 4e on the other hand broadly replaced the 1e/2e/3e cosmology with something very different in broad terms and in many specific instances recycled classic names for things with either only a passing resemblance to the earlier creature as with the eladrin, or for something like the archons, absolutely no connection whatsoever to the original.

There was continuity between the planes of 1e, 2e, and 3e as the same classic cosmology slowly evolved. 4e on the other hand was a radical break with that classic D&D tradition, intending to replace it with something new. That's why it took a beating in its reception.

What sort of cosmologies were there in 2nd ed AD&D that weren't located within the "Great Wheel"?

Much of the topic of trans-cosmology connections comes from 'Guide to the Ethereal' (which IMO was the most awesome thing Bruce Cordell has ever written), and a few other places. The Far Realm was one of them, the unnamed reality of the Keepers another, another whose name escapes me was in the PSMC III, and others were hinted at.

 

[pemerton]

Much of the topic of trans-cosmology connections comes from 'Guide to the Ethereal' (which IMO was the most awesome thing Bruce Cordell has ever written), and a few other places. The Far Realm was one of them, the unnamed reality of the Keepers another

I've got my copy of Guide to the Ethereal in front of me. I've just been looking through it trying to find this stuff about breaching cosmologies. Page 18 says "the Deep Ethereal . . . provides the connection between all the disparate prime worlds, dempiplanes, and of course, the Inner Planes." There's no reference to other cosmologies on that page, at least, and I couldn't find where else it is in the book.

4e on the other hand was a radical break with that classic D&D tradition

Except that it kept a Plane of Shadow, the Hells and the Abyss, the Seven Heavens and Tartarus/Carecri, Pandemonium, the Far Realm, and an elemental chaos plane with Slaads, Githzerai and also plenty of room for genies.

I also don't think it would be very hard to run the Guide to the Ethereal adventures in the 4e cosmology. Many of them relocate pretty straigtforwardly to either the Astral Sea or the Elemental Chaos.

 

[Orius]

That's a 3E-ism as far as I know.

In the AD&D DDG the Plane of Shadow was a shadow of the Prime Material Plane, cast by the interaction of Positive and Negative Material Planes with the Prime.

In the AD&D MoP the Plane of Shadow had become a demiplane.

I don't know about 2nd ed AD&D/Planescape, but I don't think it really had the idea of "breaching cosmologies", did it?

All I remember about the Plane of Shadow from Planesape is that is was briefly covered in the Guide to the Ethereal Plane and that's about it. I don't remember the Dragon article.

In 3e, things were simplified to: Ethereal connects to the Inner Planes, Astral connects to Outer Planes, and Shadow connects to alternate material planes if the DM wishes. That clarified some of the material about the Astral and Ethereal that previously felt a bit confusing.

 

[Li Shenron]

Would be nice also to get some clarifications about ambiguous concepts, such as what exactly are "layers"? They are still the same plane, but the way you move from one to the other resemble changing plane. Or, what exactly is a "transitive" plane? Besides the fact that it gets a lot of connection and so it is commonly used to reach another destination (but then also the Outlands have lots of connections, and maybe even the material plane has lots of portals), but what else? Perhaps these questions are better explored in articles tho.

 

[Hussar]

No, this ISN'T what you've been talking about. It's just Shemeska pointing out that there was, in fact, some pretty good material on the plane back in 2E. You and Pemerton are the one reading some sort of pro-Planescape anti-4E conspiracy into it.

Some? A single article in a Dragon magazine from almost twenty years ago? That's a pretty generous definition of "some".

The fact that a single article is being given preference over several books and Dragon articles in 4e is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. We have to drop all things 4e, because, y'know, 4e bad. But contradict some obscure article that virtually no one has read? Not a chance.

 

[Klaus]

Constructive versus destructive change. 2e/Planescape added detail onto the 1e AD&D planes for which previously there wasn't a lot of detail in 1e, and the 2e additions by and large didn't replace or invalidate 1e material. 4e on the other hand broadly replaced the 1e/2e/3e cosmology with something very different in broad terms and in many specific instances recycled classic names for things with either only a passing resemblance to the earlier creature as with the eladrin, or for something like the archons, absolutely no connection whatsoever to the original.

Using the Astral Plane/Sea, a githyanki-infested location littered with floating island-corpses of deceased gods, to reach the realms of the gods: check.

Nine Hells, Seven Heavens, Arvandor, Chernoggar/Acheron: check.

Space for adding any divine domains the DM wants: check for 4e, not for Great Wheel.

Sigil: check.

Also the whole Great Wheel diagram is described in Planescape itself as merely an arbitrary construct of mortal sages to try and make sense of the planes in relation to one another, and it wasn't any more valid than any other representation of the planes.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Space for adding any divine domains the DM wants: check for 4e, not for Great Wheel.

I dunno 'bout that. I don't see any bit of 4e plane-ness that wouldn't also fit in the Great Wheel somewhere.

And these shadow plane things seem like a good candidate for maximal lore. Lets weave 4e's assumptions into 2e's and 3e's and make the thing stronger overall.

Also the whole Great Wheel diagram is described in Planescape itself as merely an arbitrary construct of mortal sages to try and make sense of the planes in relation to one another, and it wasn't any more valid than any other representation of the planes.

My short-lived PS4e game just embraced the old PS idea that the Primes were simply too backwater to understand the "real" names of the planes. The Feywild is Arborea. The Shadowfell is mostly the Grey Waste. The Elemental Chaos is Limbo. It was solid.

 

[Klaus]

I dunno 'bout that. I don't see any bit of 4e plane-ness that wouldn't also fit in the Great Wheel somewhere.

As bits or layers of the existing planes, I agree. But 4e's set-up specifically mentioned additional astral domains that were unknown to mortals.

My short-lived PS4e game just embraced the old PS idea that the Primes were simply too backwater to understand the "real" names of the planes. The Feywild is Arborea. The Shadowfell is mostly the Grey Waste. The Elemental Chaos is Limbo. It was solid.

Personally, I'd weave the Feywild as a border between Elysium, Arvandor and the Beastlands.

 

[I'm A Banana]

As bits or layers of the existing planes, I agree. But 4e's set-up specifically mentioned additional astral domains that were unknown to mortals.

Sure. PS's iteration of the Great Wheel made sure to mention that this wasn't All of Creation, either (though some thought it was!). But I think we basically agree here.

 

[Klaus]

Sure. PS's iteration of the Great Wheel made sure to mention that this wasn't All of Creation, either (though some thought it was!). But I think we basically agree here.

We do.