D&D 5E July 11 Q&A: Cosmology, Monster Descriptions and Monster Variants

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Give me a nice modular set of planes where it's easy to take the stuff I like and leave the stuff I don't. I don't want to have to be constantly reminding players about the nonexistence of the Blood War.

But isn't divorcing the planes from the rules accomplishing that? If there no direct ties to rules, then adding or subtracting planes or reinvisioning Ravenloft/Shadowfell as the 2E Plane of Shadow or disconnecting planes they've connected would be modular.

The arguments against the cosomolgy and the monster write-ups seems to be coming from people who like crafting their own vision, but seem upset that WotC doesn't follow their's so they have to craft something. Like some kind of gamer ouroboros.

 

[Dausuul]

But isn't divorcing the planes from the rules accomplishing that? If there no direct ties to rules, then adding or subtracting planes or reinvisioning Ravenloft/Shadowfell as the 2E Plane of Shadow or disconnecting planes they've connected would be modular.

Not in the least. If every plane's writeup has copious references to other planes in it, they're not modular.

If the Abyss is a self-contained entity, with no outside ties, well and good. I can use it as the Chaotic Evil spoke of the Great Wheel; or I can use it as the nadir of the World Axis; or I can use it as a nightmare realm lurking in the depths of mortal dreams; or whatever. If I like the Abyss, it's easy to slot it in wherever it suits my particular plan for the world.

But if the Blood War is a major element of the Abyss, then suddenly the Abyss comes dragging the Nine Hells with it. If I don't want the Hells in my game, I have to excise all references to the Blood War, and figure out how to fill the resulting gaps. And if any of my players are familiar with the planar material, I have to keep reminding them that there is no Blood War in my campaign.

I want to see each plane self-contained, and then have a separate "Cosmologies" chapter in the Manual of the Planes where they show some ways to hook them together, with the Great Wheel and the World Axis as examples.

The arguments against the cosomolgy and the monster write-ups seems to be coming from people who like crafting their own vision, but seem upset that WotC doesn't follow their's so they have to craft something. Like some kind of gamer ouroboros.

No, I'm irritated because I would like WotC to provide a set of building blocks instead of a prefabricated whole. I will almost certainly be crafting my own cosmology regardless, but I would like to be able to use bits and pieces from their material without a lot of work untangling the stuff I want from the stuff I don't.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The arguments against the cosomolgy and the monster write-ups seems to be coming from people who like crafting their own vision, but seem upset that WotC doesn't follow their's so they have to craft something. Like some kind of gamer ouroboros.

Unless you're prepared to actively engage and ask about the motives in the interest of actual discovery, I'd suggest being more conservative in your speculation of what they may be. Attempts to be an internet mind-reader who is convinced he knows the true reason behind an irritation aren't generally constructive.

It's never been an issue with the specific KIND of One True Way they're advocating. It's been an issue with them advocating One True Way, period.

 

[Alzrius]

It's never been an issue with the specific KIND of One True Way they're advocating. It's been an issue with them advocating One True Way, period.

I wonder if their hand is sort of forced, in that regard, though.

D&D has, in every edition, had some sort of basic default cosmology. It had to, because when writing planar adventures (and there were always some), they needed some sort of basic assumptions on which to hinge the background and plot exposition. From being given a mission from the Seven Heavens to go to the Abyss and kill Orcus (and then make sure he's even more dead by going to the Nine Hells and slaying Tiamat), to Demogorgon in the Abyss wanting to break into the Bastion of Unborn Souls on the Positive Energy Plane, planar adventures need a framework to be hung on.

 

[Dausuul]

D&D has, in every edition, had some sort of basic default cosmology. It had to, because when writing planar adventures (and there were always some), they needed some sort of basic assumptions on which to hinge the background and plot exposition. From being given a mission from the Seven Heavens to go to the Abyss and kill Orcus (and then make sure he's even more dead by going to the Nine Hells and slaying Tiamat), to Demogorgon in the Abyss wanting to break into the Bastion of Unborn Souls on the Positive Energy Plane, planar adventures need a framework to be hung on.

If you write a Dark Sun adventure, it's going to assume the existence of muls and psionics and defilers and sorceror-kings. That doesn't mean those elements need to be written into all of D&D as The Default. Likewise, Planescape adventures are going to assume Planescape elements, but those elements need not exist across all of D&D.

WotC writes mostly "generic" adventures designed to slot into any campaign world. If they can make adventures that fit equally well into Oerth or Abeir-Toril or my own homebrew setting, I don't see why they can't be equally agnostic between the Great Wheel and the World Axis and my own homebrew cosmology.

 

[Alzrius]

If you write a Dark Sun adventure, it's going to assume the existence of muls and psionics and defilers and sorceror-kings. That doesn't mean those elements need to be written into all of D&D as The Default. Likewise, Planescape adventures are going to assume Planescape elements, but they need not exist across all of D&D.

What about generic adventures that aren't set in any particular campaign, but utilize planar adventuring?

 

[Dausuul]

What about generic adventures that aren't set in any particular campaign, but utilize planar adventuring?

What about them? In a generic adventure, you design a local environment--for instance, the Elsir Vale where "Red Hand of Doom" takes place--that can be placed into a larger world wherever the DM thinks it appropriate. In a generic planar adventure, same thing. Let's say the PCs have to venture into a dark plane sealed off from the rest of the universe and battle an imprisoned demon and its minions. That planar prison could be in Carceri, or it could be in the Abyss. It could be an astral dominion or a whirlpool in the Elemental Chaos. It could be a dread domain in Ravenloft. Or it could be somewhere in my own personal cosmology. It's up to me, the DM, to decide where I want to put it.

If adventure designers can manage adventures in the Prime without Waterdeep or the Council of Eight or the lightning rail, they should be able to manage planar adventures without Sigil or the Blood War.

 

[Philousk]

No, I'm irritated because I would like WotC to provide a set of building blocks instead of a prefabricated whole. I will almost certainly be crafting my own cosmology regardless, but I would like to be able to use bits and pieces from their material without a lot of work untangling the stuff I want from the stuff I don't.

Would the ideal not to present both ways? A first way would be to give us an already prefabricated Cosmology for those who love him and may not have wanted to tinker anyway. The second would be to provide tools and thus jointly the presentation of plans submitted independently to precisely create its own framework cosmological.

 

[Ratskinner]

Would the ideal not to present both ways? A first way would be to give us an already prefabricated Cosmology for those who love him and may not have wanted to tinker anyway. The second would be to provide tools and thus jointly the presentation of plans submitted independently to precisely create its own framework cosmological.

IF....they could keep the "default" cosmology out of the generic rules (i.e. spells don't reference it, monster descriptions don't rely on it, classes and powers aren't based on it, etc.) sure. However, experience indicates that the permeation of cosmological fluff into the core rules has been generally proportional to the amount of default fluff available. So, in 1e, there wasn't a whole lot. 2e started with little, but developed more as time went on...and the products followed suit. 3e kept it mostly level during its tenure, which was somewhat less than 2e's peak permeation (IMO). 4e presumed its big re-working right from the get-go, and it permeates all over the place. Both WotC editions had a baked-in pantheon that were harder to modify or overwrite than creating pantheons from 2e priestly spheres (again, IMO). This is one of those places that can break modularity without being loud about it.

 

[Alzrius]

What about them? In a generic adventure, you design a local environment--for instance, the Elsir Vale where "Red Hand of Doom" takes place--that can be placed into a larger world wherever the DM thinks it appropriate. In a generic planar adventure, same thing. Let's say the PCs have to venture into a dark plane sealed off from the rest of the universe and battle an imprisoned demon and its minions. That planar prison could be in Carceri, or it could be in the Abyss. It could be an astral dominion or a whirlpool in the Elemental Chaos. It could be a dread domain in Ravenloft. Or it could be somewhere in my own personal cosmology. It's up to me, the DM, to decide where I want to put it.

If adventure designers can manage adventures in the Prime without Waterdeep or the Council of Eight or the lightning rail, they should be able to manage planar adventures without Sigil or the Blood War.

So in other words, generic planar adventures should avoid any references to the planes they take place on? That seems like it'd be somewhat onerous, as it wouldn't allow any description of anything beyond the local area - one could say that it wouldn't need any such detail, but it'd be awkward for things like random encounter tables for a general area.

There'd also be issues of specific planar effects, the most common being the way magic is altered by various planes. While it'd be easy to manually add modifiers like penalties and bonuses, it's more difficult when you're adding something like a blanket ban on X type of magic that's a large component of the adventure (e.g. a central tactic of one of the major villains).

Of course, none of these problems are unique to generic adventures, as any sort of alteration to a setting will generally involve some adaptation, but that's sort of the point. If you're going to have to change things to use them in a different (e.g. home-brew) game anyway, then at least make them have a default option for those who don't want/need to alter the setting as it's presented. You don't need to talk about Sigil or the Blood War, but you can say that an adventure takes place in the Abyss, which is home to demons rather than devils, and it affects magic like so.