Psionics: Magic or Not

[Andor]

I don't agree with that. The way I interpret magic in D&D is "supernatural power that comes from somewhere else", whereas psionics is "supernatural power that comes from within".

Isn't "Supernatural power that comes from within" the exact description of the 3e Sorcerer? Are you ok with that class, or do you think the Psion should kill him and take his niche?

 

[Ahnehnois]

Isn't "Supernatural power that comes from within" the exact description of the 3e Sorcerer? Are you ok with that class, or do you think the Psion should kill him and take his niche?

Not exactly, no. A sorcerer knows how to channel arcane magic without reading it from a book, but the source of his spells is still external to him. What that source is varies by setting, I know FR has a lot to say about this but I'm no expert. A similar distinction was later applied between cleric and favored soul. One character learns a process for accessing magic, the other naturally knows the process for accessing magic. But it's still magic.

 

[Kinak]

Either every kind of magic is different, or every kind of magic is the same. No "arcane and divine are both magic, but psychic stuff isn't." Arcane and divine should be as differentiated from each other as arcane and psionics are.

I don't disagree. Honestly, if I had a choice, divine magic would be as different from arcane as they both are from psionics.

The flavor of divine magic actually causes a huge (in-character) argument in my current Pathfinder campaign. People were dying of ghoul fever and the party's cleric couldn't save any of them because he hadn't prepared cure disease. The fighter flipped out, basically saying no good god would force such stupid restrictions on her servants and renounced his faith. It eventually led to the fighter multi-classing to paladin of a different god, but I think his point stands.

Bringing it back around to psionics, I'm fine with dispel magic working on any number of different disciplines. But I don't see any point in having psionics at all if it just works like other magic.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[GX.Sigma]

I thought the whole point of psionics is that it isn't magic.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I don't disagree. Honestly, if I had a choice, divine magic would be as different from arcane as they both are from psionics.

I do kind of agree with that. I never saw why "pray to a known entity for spells given to you as a gift" and "perform mysterious rituals to tap into cosmic power that no one understands" were the same mechanic. I'd be quite happy with an un-Vancian free-form cleric that had nothing resembling a spell or a power.

 

[TwoSix]

I do kind of agree with that. I never saw why "pray to a known entity for spells given to you as a gift" and "perform mysterious rituals to tap into cosmic power that no one understands" were the same mechanic. I'd be quite happy with an un-Vancian free-form cleric that had nothing resembling a spell or a power.

I've often thought that 3e warlocks would make a better model for clerics than their current model, combined with some of the auras and healing abilities from the 3e PHB2 dragon shaman.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I've often thought that 3e warlocks would make a better model for clerics than their current model, combined with some of the auras and healing abilities from the 3e PHB2 dragon shaman.

I'm on board with that. I've never liked use limitations for divine casters, and a smaller selection of thematic abilities would be better than memorizing any spell you feel like.

I'm fine with the "everything should be different side" really. If SR and antimagic fields only worked on arcane magic, I'd be okay with that. If they worked on psionics, then we're in SPUM territory, which I don't like.

 

[Andor]

I do kind of agree with that. I never saw why "pray to a known entity for spells given to you as a gift" and "perform mysterious rituals to tap into cosmic power that no one understands" were the same mechanic. I'd be quite happy with an un-Vancian free-form cleric that had nothing resembling a spell or a power.

Except in D&D what's happening is almost the opposite of what you describe. The Cleric prays to an otherworldly power who crams a set of instructions into the clerics brain. The cleric follows the instructions and magic happens but he doesn't understand why particularly. The Wizard performs rituals that she does understand which allow her to achieve magical effects, that's why she gets to learn new spells each level and research novel magics. Of course then you go and screw that relationship up with Sorcerers and Archivists.

At any rate the point is that D&D Clerics do not, and never have, prayed directly to their Gods for miracles (barring the miracle spell.) The closest a D&D class has ever come to that approach to magic was the 2e Sha'ir, and he wasn't so much praying as ordering.

The truth of the matter is that D&D magic is a horrid jumble of dozens of different fantasy and real-world mystical traditions, several of which have incompatible cosmologies, and it portrays none of them well. In the end D&D is D&D and if you really want to think about it and make it internally consistent then you can either prune out about half the classes or go with a Glorantha-like mythical reality and let the cosmology wars rage over your campaign.

And the kicker is that even if you do apply that level of thought and effort to it, your results only apply to your own table and leave the game at large still a mess. That's why these internet discussions, while usfully thought provoking, are highly unlikely to actually lead to any kind of concensus. We've all built our own mental models of what this jumbled mash-up actually means and they don't even share the same definitions.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Except in D&D what's happening is almost the opposite of what you describe. The Cleric prays to an otherworldly power who crams a set of instructions into the clerics brain. The cleric follows the instructions and magic happens but he doesn't understand why particularly. The Wizard performs rituals that she does understand which allow her to achieve magical effects, that's why she gets to learn new spells each level and research novel magics. Of course then you go and screw that relationship up with Sorcerers and Archivists.

At any rate the point is that D&D Clerics do not, and never have, prayed directly to their Gods for miracles (barring the miracle spell.)

None of that strikes me as being particularly important to the point I was making, which is that divine and arcane abilities, while perhaps not as different as psionics, are different from each other. What those differences are is less important. However, it is worth noting that the 3e cleric spells text states explicitly "Clerics meditate or pray for their spells."

As to the wizard, I think it's clear that he understands how to cast spells, but not at all clear that he understands why they work.

The truth of the matter is that D&D magic is a horrid jumble of dozens of different fantasy and real-world mystical traditions, several of which have incompatible cosmologies, and it portrays none of them well. In the end D&D is D&D and if you really want to think about it and make it internally consistent then you can either prune out about half the classes or go with a Glorantha-like mythical reality and let the cosmology wars rage over your campaign.

I don't know what Glorantha is, but yes D&D is a hodgepodge. Personally, conflicts between different supernatural powers are central to my campaigns; I read the rules and extrapolate and add my own interpretations to them.

And the kicker is that even if you do apply that level of thought and effort to it, your results only apply to your own table and leave the game at large still a mess. That's why these internet discussions, while usfully thought provoking, are highly unlikely to actually lead to any kind of concensus. We've all built our own mental models of what this jumbled mash-up actually means and they don't even share the same definitions.

Well, some published settings do make more explicit statements about where their magic comes from, and they might reach a broader audience than just one table. But for the rest of us that use our own homebrewed settings or are liberal on these things, yes I agree a consensus as to what magic is and is not won't likely happen.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

In either case, it's out of place.

If psionics is magic, it's redundant to magic.

If psionics isn't magic, it's game breaking, and adds an unnecessary complex system.