D&D 5E New D&D Next Playtest package is up (19/9/2013) [merged threads]

What's up with the multiclass Prereqs? Wasn't that discarded along with THAC0?

I like them. They discourage casual multi-classing to pick up proficiencies (say, a rogue dipping into fighter to get martial weapons or a wizard dipping into rogue to get skills). If you want to change professions, you need to have sufficient aptitude to do it.

You want to dip barbarian1/fighter1/rogue3/ranger1? Good. Have a 15 strength, 15 dex, 13 con, and 13 wisdom ready to go.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I like them. They discourage casual multi-classing to pick up proficiencies (say, a rogue dipping into fighter to get martial weapons or a wizard dipping into rogue to get skills). If you want to change professions, you need to have sufficient aptitude to do it.

You want to dip barbarian1/fighter1/rogue3/ranger1? Good. Have a 15 strength, 15 dex, 13 con, and 13 wisdom ready to go.

And most likely, you can match those requirements by 4th level.
 

I do NOT want them to "spread out" first level abilities or delay them for later levels to inhibit "dipping" the way 3.5 did. I never saw the problem with dips. It's not like it hurt anybody's feelings that somebody took 1 level in another class.

Among the top 3 reasons that makes me hate 3rd edition with such a fiery passion is that they made you play a character for weeks or months before he could actually do what you wanted him to do.

No more.

Note that in DDN the first three levels breeze past quickly (950 XP gets you to 3rd level).
 

And most likely, you can match those requirements by 4th level.

1.) Depends on the point-buy value used.
2.) It spreads you damn thin. You could have a 20 strength, but now you got to invest in an odd numbered dex and wis.
3.) It prevents stat-dumping if you want to multiclassing.
 

I like them. They discourage casual multi-classing to pick up proficiencies (say, a rogue dipping into fighter to get martial weapons or a wizard dipping into rogue to get skills). If you want to change professions, you need to have sufficient aptitude to do it.

If that was the reason, why don't the rules say so? Getting martial weapon proficiencies is also possible with feats, that do not have prerequisites.
 

If that was the reason, why don't the rules say so? Getting martial weapon proficiencies is also possible with feats, that do not have prerequisites.

They do. Multiclassing, page 1, column 2. Literally above the table you are talking about.

"Adopting a new class without the full extent of training that a beginning character has means that you must be a quick study, with natural aptitude reflected in unusually high ability scores."
 

Multiclass Feats in 4e have Prerequisites. Plus, these Prereqs aren't hard to hit, since characters can bump their stats by a decent ammount every few levels.

This is also what I thought, but too-easy-to-meet prerequisites become pointless. They are just going to hurt the player who was unlucky to roll low (however, also see my last comment).

It needs to be said however, that while they are probably too easy for having 2 classes, the more classes you combine the harder it will be to raise your stats, because ability increases are granted by each class, not total levels. So if you need 15 in all stats for your crazy combo, you probably need to have them since the start.

I do NOT want them to "spread out" first level abilities or delay them for later levels to inhibit "dipping" the way 3.5 did. I never saw the problem with dips. It's not like it hurt anybody's feelings that somebody took 1 level in another class.

The problem is that you can't have these 3 at the same time:

- a single-class character that has plenty of stuff since level 1
- multiclass dipping that isn't worth more than continuing in your existing classes
- 3e style multiclassing where you just pick the 1st level of another class

I would be ok to reduce the stuff at level 1, for instance spreading the proficiencies over the first 3 levels. After all, at least for weapons the chances are that you ain't going to need all the martial proficiencies until you start finding cool magic weapons and thus you want to swap. What could be done, is to give e.g. 2-3 martial weapon proficiencies + 1 specific armor proficiency per armor category at 1st level, then again at 2nd level, and when reaching 3rd level you just gain all the remaining weapons and armor proficiencies. This way at least you can't dip for too many weapon/armor proficiencies. This is not a problem about PC with more than 2 classes, it's usually a trick by taking 1 level in your second class. For example, a Wizard taking 1 level in Fighter will get not only proficiency with all weapons but more importantly proficiency with all armors (remember that a 5e Wizard has no penalties or restrictions for casting spells in armor if proficient).

Another option would be to change the third point e.g. by making you pay more XP for the 1st level in a new class.

I like them. They discourage casual multi-classing to pick up proficiencies (say, a rogue dipping into fighter to get martial weapons or a wizard dipping into rogue to get skills). If you want to change professions, you need to have sufficient aptitude to do it.

You want to dip barbarian1/fighter1/rogue3/ranger1? Good. Have a 15 strength, 15 dex, 13 con, and 13 wisdom ready to go.

It sounds very old-school: you need to have rolled high to get the best class (but in this case, to get free access to crazy combos). I don't know how many people would like this principle tho, that if you roll good stats you are rewarded by something even extra to the stats themselves.

All in all, I think multiclassing prerequisites in terms of minimum abilities are a goof. They will practically hurt/annoy players at random, and mean nothing to other players. Their only positive is that they are very easy to adjudicate (in fact, they are automatic), compared to more complicated concepts like requiring a trainer, which depends on the DM to make it happen.
 

Sure, there are meek half-orcs; they will have low charismas. This rule does two great things:
(1) it allows the physically largest of the default races to be somewhat more intimidating than other PC races, which certainly reflects one way that intimidation works.
(2) it provides a model that separates a race's ability bonuses from the things they are typically good at.

My bad, I thought a meek half orc would have a low strength/constitution score...

How intimidating someone is depends on many factors. Yes, (visible) strength can be one factor, but there are many others. Anyway, there is no real reason why half orcs, including the weak ones, would be more intimidating than other people. So why should they be "typically good at" intimidating people? Let me guess, big ugly half orc stereotype...

Races should only offer skill bonuses if the reason for them are an inherit physical qualities possessed by all members of that race (for example 3E gnomes sense of smell).
But half orcs being more intimidating? Why? That is not a physical quality (intimidation being a more psychological effect) or, if you subscribe to ugly + muscles = intimidating, not possessed by every member of the race as there can be small and weak half orcs (by putting low scores into strength/constitution).
 
Last edited:

I like the range of Classes, overall. Not too few that players feel they have no choice, and not too many that they are overwhelmed or that the classes feel overly contrived. The return of skills seemed pretty inevitable because they couldn't really establish a better alternative in play testing - but at least they are toned down from 3e. D&D isn't a skills-based system, traditionally and the problem with giving it a fully integrated skill system (a la RuneQuest) is that it makes the game feel too convoluted.

So in those senses, the game looks good to me.

The issues, at first glance, still lies with Humans (and to a degree half elves and half orcs) being boring racial choices, especially with the universal +1 to all stats rule. It should have been scrapped in the opening play test, yet it's still here. I'd rather see the Humans loosely segregated into cultures with more interesting traits, as we do with other Races. You could include bonus Feats and Skills now, like 3e. Either way, +1 to all stats looks and feels stupid.

I also think the Mage could make some efforts to indicate alternative Traditions to Wizardry. The Diabolist/Warlock may be too tricky to manage in the core book, but a simple spell-points based Sorcerer (with additional fluff) would not be too difficult to include. The core details of the Mage would be the same, so it wouldn't take up too much space as far as I can see.

In terms of the rest of the packet, I will have to play through it first to make any other judgment.
 

Note that in DDN the first three levels breeze past quickly (950 XP gets you to 3rd level).

Not actually true, the experience reward for an average encounter at level 1 is only 20 xp. It still requires 12.5 average level encounters to reach level 2, pretty much the same as 3e, and slightly more than 4e.

They've made the numbers smaller, but the proportions are still the same.
 

Remove ads

Top