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D&D 5E New D&D Next Playtest package is up (19/9/2013) [merged threads]

Ainamacar

Adventurer
Yeah, that is a problem.

A hypothetical Fighter1/MageXX with the Solider background has proficiency in all simple and martial weapons, all armor and shields, Althletics, Intimidation, Survival, Gaming Set, Mounts, Vehicles, Acrobatics*, Strength, Constitution, Intelligence, and Wisdom saves, and Arcana*. All for a -1 to caster ability level and a 15 int.

So yeah, Proficiency and multi-classing is borked right now.

* Possible choice.

Going for a happy medium between 3.5's skill points and 4e's single-stop proficiency might nip this issue in the bud. The first time you take a level in a class (regardless of whether you have other classes already) you get all its proficiencies and can select as many skills as normal. However, these things don't apply to all character levels universally, they apply only to levels in that class. So if you are a Ranger10/Druid10, you would generally get the level 10 benefits of proficiencies that are in only one of those classes (say Stealth and Religion) but the full 20th level benefit from the ones that are in both (like Nature). The same for the "core" proficiencies like weapons and saves. For example, the ranger has proficiency in all simple and martial weapons. The druid is proficient in a list of specific weapons, but they're all either simple or martial. So one would get the level 20 proficiency bonuses for druid weapons, and level 10 bonuses for all other simple and martial weapons. Level 20 saving throws in Wisdom, level 10 in Dexterity. Armor proficiencies don't yet fit into this scheme, but they are already the exception to the normal proficiency rules, and could probably use a rewrite.

Since one makes these proficiency choices exactly once for each class, the complexity of tracking it all depends directly on how much multiclassing one does. In other words, all the complexity is opt-in. A single-classed character's proficiencies are no harder than those in 4e, and unless someone takes a new class every level it is always simpler than 3e's skill points.

Proficiencies from Background, Race, and probably other non-class sources would still apply to all character levels, just as they do now. Besides being simple, I thematically like how those elements are effectively infused into whatever classes the character chooses to take. Race and background are highlighted as special, and they also exert some soft incentives on what kinds of multiclassing are easier or harder for that particular character in a way that feels much more organic to me than, say, 3e's favored classes.

Finally, make sure there is a way to make sure one can incorporate a proficiency into another class. For example, incorporating "Stealth" into one's Druid skills, and therefore calculating its proficiency bonus from levels of Druid as well as Ranger. It would be the perfect place for downtime-training, in my opinion. Simple multiclassing that results in full proficiencies for everything the character cares about might be relatively cheap. However, a character that takes 6 classes and has some level of proficiency in 15 skills would find getting full proficiency bonuses for each of those prohibitively expensive, and would need to concentrate on a few. It might even make a better check on multiclassing than the ability score requirements, although I'd need to think more about that.
 
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Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
Fighters wield it significantly better, and quicker, than the others. You're acting like the weapon proficiency bonus is the only thing that impacts their fighting ability, even though that's obviously not the case from even a cursory glance at the class.

I was limiting my comment to "to hit" alone. A wizard, bard, fighter all fight with the exact same skill. That's what the rules say. Well, with the exception of ranged weapons: the fighter has an option to choose a class feature that makes him hit 5% more often than a wizard.

Sure, add 4 levels and the fighter gets an extra attack. Now he has two chances to hit exactly as often (or 5% more often) as the wizard.

I have a problem with that.

My desire is for the fighter to be the best at hitting things. Better than the ranger, better than the paladin or cleric. And certainly better than the wizard. Right now, that's simply not the case.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

If you find yourself answering "yes" to a gaming-related question of "are you arguing in favor of something because of your own sense of entitlement", and you're OK with that once you realize it, then I'd say you and I are so incompatible in our world views that further debate is not fruitful.

I would however ask how old you are - not as a slam, just as a curiosity as to possible generational shifts in world views.
 

the Jester

Legend
I was limiting my comment to "to hit" alone. A wizard, bard, fighter all fight with the exact same skill. That's what the rules say. Well, with the exception of ranged weapons: the fighter has an option to choose a class feature that makes him hit 5% more often than a wizard.

Sure, add 4 levels and the fighter gets an extra attack. Now he has two chances to hit exactly as often (or 5% more often) as the wizard.

I have a problem with that.

My desire is for the fighter to be the best at hitting things. Better than the ranger, better than the paladin or cleric. And certainly better than the wizard. Right now, that's simply not the case.

Yeah, I was kind of expecting fighters to have a class ability that gave them straight-up +1 on attack rolls; it seemed like an obvious feature to me.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I was limiting my comment to "to hit" alone. A wizard, bard, fighter all fight with the exact same skill. That's what the rules say. Well, with the exception of ranged weapons: the fighter has an option to choose a class feature that makes him hit 5% more often than a wizard.

Sure, add 4 levels and the fighter gets an extra attack. Now he has two chances to hit exactly as often (or 5% more often) as the wizard.

I have a problem with that.

My desire is for the fighter to be the best at hitting things. Better than the ranger, better than the paladin or cleric. And certainly better than the wizard. Right now, that's simply not the case.

They have lots of other abilities that enhance their fighting as well.

Maybe you should play one for a while? I find these things come into focus better when you see them in play, rather than reading them.
 

Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
They have lots of other abilities that enhance their fighting as well.

Maybe you should play one for a while? I find these things come into focus better when you see them in play, rather than reading them.

They do, but if you factor in those features then you have to so for the other classes as well, and Fighters don't stack up well against paladins or casters. In any event, that boils down to "fighters are no better at hitting things than any other class, but..."
I contend that the question "is the fighter the best at hitting something with a weapon?" should not be a qualified, nuanced, debateable question. It should be a simple "yes."

I agree with your suggestion to play classes before commenting. I've played fighters in each playtest packet and have not had a chance to play this iteration. Still, as a credited play tester of 3rd and 4th, and active play tester of this edition, I'm comfortable commenting on what I see written in this latest playtest packet.
 

Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
A 1-level dip in Rogue is also very worthwhile, for almost every class:

* +5 to four proficiencies or skills.
* proficiency in four skills (in most cases, doubling the number for the character)

These alone probably make it worthwhile, I'd have thought. In addition,
* armour and some weapon and tool proficiencies, of use to mages at least
* sneak attack, so a situational +1d6 damage.
 

Sure, add 4 levels and the fighter gets an extra attack. Now he has two chances to hit exactly as often (or 5% more often) as the wizard.

And the war domain cleric gets an extra attack at level 1.

I agree with you -- the fighter isn't mechanically much better at fighting (particularly if he selects a defensive style) until he gains a number of levels, which seems wrong. A blanket "+1 to hit" would solve it IMO.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
They do, but if you factor in those features then you have to so for the other classes as well,

I am

and Fighters don't stack up well against paladins or casters.

I totally disagree. And, from feedback WOTC is getting, I think most people disagree with your view on that as well. They worked great in our one playtest since the newest package came out.

In any event, that boils down to "fighters are no better at hitting things than any other class, but..."
I contend that the question "is the fighter the best at hitting something with a weapon?" should not be a qualified, nuanced, debateable question. It should be a simple "yes."

Now you've made your argument a moving target. It was "better at fighting", but now you skewed the question to "best a hitting something with a weapon", and that's a fairly narrow question. I want them best at fighting, and they are. Best at hitting with a weapon is usually reserved for the light-weapon finesse fighter-type, while best at damage with a weapon is usually reserved for the barbarian, but best overall at fighting is the fighter domain, and I think they accomplish that well.
 

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