Pathfinder 1E Does pathfinder strike anyone as too gamey?

[N'raac]

I don't find these fully persuasive, frankly.

Examples of non-tedious brakes on wizardly power: random spell failure chances (Rolemaster, RQ, Burning Wheel, I believe also DCC)

This is often perceived as a general incompetence on the part of spellcasters. The fighter doesn't chop off his own arm one swing in 20, nor do I want him to.

chances of getting noticed by the dark lord (some Tolkien emulators, or in BW the chance of a random summoning)

So keep using your spells until something goes wrong and you have to make a new character. Just make a new spellcaster - its not like the GM is going to crater the game by making us all start over at 1st level, right? And don't invest a lot in personality - wizards in this game have a 3 game session life expectancy anyway, but they sure are powerful!

having to trade something of value to the wizard in order to invoke an effect

We have some xp and costly material components now, but I assume this is intended to be more on the line of something role playing based. "Yeah, yeah - back to town, pick a cute barmaid, court her, woo her, fall in love, slash her throat - NOW can I cast my Teleport spell?"

If one or more of these approaches are working for you or others as the key element here, then more strength to your arms, but I don't think they are viable general solutions. I don't know that there are viable general solutions due to the wide range of playstyles.

 

[pemerton]

So keep using your spells until something goes wrong and you have to make a new character. Just make a new spellcaster

That wasn't quite what I said, and isn't how I personally would run it.

I assume this is intended to be more on the line of something role playing based. "Yeah, yeah - back to town, pick a cute barmaid, court her, woo her, fall in love, slash her throat - NOW can I cast my Teleport spell?"

Obviously if you're running a game in which ingame costs are of no concern to your players this wouldn't work.

I guess then there's no balancing option for mages other than encumbrance?

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

That wasn't quite what I said, and isn't how I personally would run it.

Obviously if you're running a game in which ingame costs are of no concern to your players this wouldn't work.

I guess then there's no balancing option for mages other than encumbrance?

yea, and encumbrance in no way hurts no casters... like thieves, and assassins, and swashbucklers who dump str...

 

[N'raac]

That wasn't quite what I said, and isn't how I personally would run it.

Obviously if you're running a game in which ingame costs are of no concern to your players this wouldn't work.

I guess then there's no balancing option for mages other than encumbrance?

I consider encumbrance more a balancing mechanism to ensure there is a cost to dumping STR, even if you are not a melee attacker. However, encumbrance is attacked as being "too tedious" for at least some groups/players. I am pointing out that these other suggested balancing mechanisms also rely on a group accepting and applying them in the spirit in which they are intended, and not as a mechanic to manipulate. And let's be realistic - a lot of "spellcasters are overpowered" issues arise due to manipulation of the mechanics outside their reasonable and intended usage. That's why I support a lengthy casting time for Teleportation - it would mechanically reinforce the expectation this be a long-distance transport spell. I'd also support a "dazed for 1-3 minutes on arrival" addition to all teleportation for the same reason.

But if we aren't going to apply the existing rules, what would happen to these new rules? There's not much point adding a bunch of rules that will just be ignored anyway.

 

[billd91]

yea, and encumbrance in no way hurts no casters... like thieves, and assassins, and swashbucklers who dump str...

I feel all Christmasy when a dump-stater runs into trouble with the stat they dumped. Way better than the smell of napalm in the morning. Schadenfreude is the best kind of freude.

 

[pemerton]

And let's be realistic - a lot of "spellcasters are overpowered" issues arise due to manipulation of the mechanics outside their reasonable and intended usage.

I don't agree with this at all. Some of my concerns about traditional D&D spellcasters being overpowered arise from straightforward uses of spells like Charm/Dominate Person, Invisibility, Fly, Polymorph, Teleport, and a whole host of Divination spells. These are the spells that, playing AD&D, have led to broken builds and that, playing Rolemaster, my group nerfed so as to tone down the caster/non-caster imbalance.

4e also heavily nerfs them all except divination, which is only mildly nerfed.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I feel all Christmasy when a dump-stater runs into trouble with the stat they dumped. Way better than the smell of napalm in the morning. Schadenfreude is the best kind of freude.

I feel that way when people who dump cha get ignored no matter how well they 'role play speeches' so I understand.

 

[brvheart]

Which is why I have started not allowing new characters with a original stat below 10 to eliminate the "dump statting". I can see optimizing a character with your stats, but these dump stats have gotten ridiculous. I allow 25 point buys so people don't have to dump stats.

 

[Wiseblood]

I stopped in and had to look up Schadenfreude again. I think the last time I saw it was Bram Stoker's Dracula IIRC. (thanks [MENTION=3400]billd91[/MENTION] maybe it'll stick this time)

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

Which is why I have started not allowing new characters with a original stat below 10 to eliminate the "dump statting". I can see optimizing a character with your stats, but these dump stats have gotten ridiculous. I allow 25 point buys so people don't have to dump stats.

we generaly roll, and have a generous method when we want power houses, and strict ones when playing low power [Sblock=roll method]we roll 4d6 reroll 1's then drop the lowest... roll 7 numbers then drop the lowest. or roll 3d6 6 times [/sblock]