Pathfinder 1E Does pathfinder strike anyone as too gamey?

[brvheart]

We used rolling in 3.5, but point buys are the order of the day in Pathfinder. Re-rolling 1's makes them too powerful IMHO. It raises the average too high, especially for Pathfinder.

 

[billd91]

When I run PF, we roll stats so we don't get players deliberately dumping stats to boost other ones. Specifically, I have them roll 4d6, drop lowest for two characters and then pick the set they prefer to play.

 

[Bluenose]

This is often perceived as a general incompetence on the part of spellcasters. The fighter doesn't chop off his own arm one swing in 20, nor do I want him to.

The Wizard is also supposedly manipulating the cosmic forces of the universe in ways they aren't meant to be manipulated. It might possibly be considered difficult enough to have a failure chance.

Also, plenty of people injure themselves with weapons every year. Any assumption that weapons are easy to use without injuring yourself is not backed up by evidence. The Fighter gets away with swinging an axe around in combat because of years of training.

 

[NewJeffCT]

we generaly roll, and have a generous method when we want power houses, and strict ones when playing low power [Sblock=roll method]we roll 4d6 reroll 1's then drop the lowest... roll 7 numbers then drop the lowest. or roll 3d6 6 times [/sblock]

the all-time powegamer rolling method was back in 1e Unearthed Arcana (I think that was the book). Basically, you decided what character you wanted to be ahead of time - so, if you wanted to be a wizard, you would roll 9d6 and keep the top 3 scores for INT... then, 8d6 for the next most important stat, be it CON, DEX, WIS, etc... right on down to 3d6 for the least important stat. The thing is, you could still roll well with the 3d6 and have a good "dump" stat.

And, if you say, "Jeff, 9d6 to 3d6 is seven ability scores, are you sure you're remembering correctly?" and, I would respond, "yes, because in late 1e days, there was also the optional stat of Comeliness, which was a measure of pure physical attractiveness, compared to Charisma, which also has to do with force of personality." (Then, I'd likely go on to say how some evil dictators in history may have been physically unattractive (low Comeliness), but obviously had high Charisma due to their ability to excite huge crowds of people to follow them.)

 

[Starfox]

Since this has become a nostalgia thread about character creation dice rolling...

The "Improved Yazy" model - roll 4d6 for each attribute. You can reroll any dice you don't like, but you have to keep at least one die more than you did last time. Keep the best 3. Repeat six times and distribute as you like. For improved results, start with 6 dice.

The "big pool" model - toll 21d6. Group these into groups of 3 however you like to make 6 attributes. Delete the lowest rolled attribute and replace it with 16.

The "Open 4d6" method: Roll 4d6 for each stat, take the best 3. If the die you removed was a 5, add +1. If it was a 6, add +2. Gives a miniscule (1/1296) chance of rolling 20.

Personally I tend to use a 20 point bye in Pathfinder and my homebrew is entirely point-bye.

 

[N'raac]

I don't agree with this at all. Some of my concerns about traditional D&D spellcasters being overpowered arise from straightforward uses of spells like Charm/Dominate Person, Invisibility, Fly, Polymorph, Teleport, and a whole host of Divination spells. These are the spells that, playing AD&D, have led to broken builds and that, playing Rolemaster, my group nerfed so as to tone down the caster/non-caster imbalance.

I find Teleport is often interpreted more loosely than the actual spell suggests. The GM doesn't want to make waves, so that bad percentile roll comes to nothing. We can "study an area carefully" through means whose ability to allow the area to be studied carefully is suspect, the PC's have no difficulty all joining hands in mid-combat, etc. Charms and Dominates are often envisioned as "well, he made his save so life goes on - no offense taken" and the rules for detecting a person is charmed or dominated are simply ignored. Invisible casters are able to forcefully speak their verbal components and no one notices, lose their scent, etc. Flying ones are assumed to be removed from the field of combat.

Divination seems to vary a lot group to group. The question of how the divination spells lead to the perfect knowledge claimed is one that never seems answered. Polymorph, however, has been an issue, and has been amended numerous times in the hopes of fixing it.

The big picture issue is often "oh, we can arrange a rest and come back tomorrow at our leisure - go ahead and Nova". The rest of the world should not enter stasis for 23 hours because the PC's blew off all their spells at the start of the day.

Now, I certainly noticed we seemed overpowered against Goblins with our Sorcerer's sleep spells at low levels. Guess what? Not all opponents are affected by Sleep spells, and he has a limited, though large, number each day. Issues also arise when the opponents have similar HD to the PC's and the monsters close for melee.

I feel that way when people who dump cha get ignored no matter how well they 'role play speeches' so I understand.

I just "love" rousing, persuasive speeches from 8 CHA characters. Perhaps the best response is "That was highly persuasive content, delivered effectively and passionately. I can only assume Grunk the Horrendous is a spitter." Of course, one can also simply use "Nice delivery - obviously your own Diplomacy roll is much better than your characters. Roll his Diplomacy to see how well he emulated your excellent speech."

That doesn't mean a bonus for use of good intel would not be awarded - that's in-game. But the fact that my player is a skilled orator does not make his 8 CHA character with no social skills a better speaker, any more than the fact he is also morbidly obese and must pause to catch his breath twice to climb the basement stairs means his nimble (if anti-social) rogue is impeded from doing a Kirk shoulder roll, spinning out with twin daggers in hand to disembowel his enemy, then backflipping away, nimbly landing on his feet. And let's not talk about role playing whether you make your save against that Lightning Bolt!

The Wizard is also supposedly manipulating the cosmic forces of the universe in ways they aren't meant to be manipulated. It might possibly be considered difficult enough to have a failure chance.

Sure. I'm not saying that the failure chance cannot be a very workable balancing mechanism. I am saying it is not the perfect solution which will work for all groups.

Also, plenty of people injure themselves with weapons every year. Any assumption that weapons are easy to use without injuring yourself is not backed up by evidence. The Fighter gets away with swinging an axe around in combat because of years of training.

Yet those characters with minimal or no weapons training also have no risk of self-injury, or even harming comrades. And didn't the Wizard spend years of training to learn to manipulating the cosmic forces of the universe in ways they aren't meant to be manipulated? Why is the fighter to be competent in his field of expertise, but the wizard should blow it on regular occasions?

 

[N'raac]

I like point buy. I'm always amazed how few randomly rolled characters come in below average for whatever rolling method is used.

 

[Hussar]

I like point buy. I'm always amazed how few randomly rolled characters come in below average for whatever rolling method is used.

You notice that too?

Funny how point buy is almost always lower than a die rolled character.

Which rolls back to the "dump stat" strength wizard. What the heck is your wizard carrying that it becomes an issue?

Even a medium load maxes out at 53 pounds for an 8 str. What is your wizard carrying? Staff? What for? Unless it's magical, it's just dead weight. If you are actually in melee combat, you're hosed anyway. Your spellbook is only 3 pounds. Scrolls don't weigh anything. Neither do wands.

How is encumbrance even slightly limiting my 8 str wizard? I've got 26 pounds before I have to start worrying and all the things I really need - spellbook, scrolls, wands, couple of daggers, heck, toss in a staff for giggles, weighs about 10 pounds.

So, again, I've got another 10 pounds worth of gear before I even start getting slowed down. What am I carrying? Food and stuff better be on my horse. Does no one bother with anything like a pack animal?

I have to admit, this is a totally new one to me. Wizards are limited by encumbrance. What do you do in games where the wizard doesn't dump stat STR? A 12 Str, hardly a major point sink for a point buy character or a die rolled one, lets me carry 43 pounds. What am I possibly carrying where that's going to be an issue?

 

[Lindeloef]

I like point buy. I'm always amazed how few randomly rolled characters come in below average for whatever rolling method is used.

you haven't seen me roll ^^ I am lucky if i get at least as high as 13 on one of my scores (with the "roll 4d6 drop lowest" version)

 

[Ahnehnois]

I like point buy. I'm always amazed how few randomly rolled characters come in below average for whatever rolling method is used.

I'm wondering if you're equally amazed by how many hit die rolls are above average. Or even how many attack rolls are above 10.

To me, this kind of inflation is kind of universal, for a variety of reasons.

Don't get me wrong, it is a good reason to use an allocation system rather than random rolls for ability scores.