Sexism in Table-Top Gaming: My Thoughts On It, and What We Can Do About It

And that, and not in the gender rules, is where the sexism is inherent to the system. D&D has always privileged strength as the most important stat, and violent combat as the privileged resolution system. It wasn't I think intentional sexism. I think it was just a result of evolving the game from war gaming roots.

What? OD&D doesn't feature sexist stat mods, and Chainmail provides no differences if you want to say that a particular unit of troops are all female.

You mean options like specialization and double specialization and magic items that increase strength, and magic items that allow all characters to increase their strength beyond attribute limitations. Sine most characters don't have an 18 strength anyway strength becomes a small percentage of where the bonuses come from.

All available to every fighter character right? So why the stubborn refusal to unlock the 51-00 range for females ar chargen? It truly boggles the mind.

What if in the default setting we retained the STR limits for females but put a limit of 16 on INT for male characters. So now if want to play a male magic user your INT would be capped at 16. No 8th & 9th level spells for you. It would be ok though because there are magic items that can be used to raise your INT. It balances out. Men are better at hitting things and women are better at high level magic. You don't need power Word Kill because you have biceps.

Makes no sense.
 

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Crothian

First Post
All available to every fighter character right? So why the stubborn refusal to unlock the 51-00 range for females ar chargen? It truly boggles the mind.

Who is refusing anything? The makers of the game got rid of attribute limits based on gender in 2e so not them. No one in this thread has come up in favor if them.

edit: and in answer to the other point I would have no problem if a game restricted human males to a 16 intelligence because human males in the game might be stupid does not mean human males are stupid. I don't see fantasy games as a reflection of our reality.
 
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Libertad

Hero
Regarding the OP: Personally, I haven't seen this issue arise in any games I've been in, and I certainly wouldn't condone any disrespectful behavior toward anyone in a game session. But I wonder: What's next--legislation to govern what can and cannot be done at the game table in a private residence?

I never said that a "one size fits all" ban was the ideal approach. When it comes to private gaming sessions, I suggested in "Confronting Problematic Behavior at the Table" that players and DMs discuss problems where players feel uncomfortable and/or unwelcome, and to speak up when players start treating other players badly. And to be careful in the handling of certain subjects; not a ban, but to treat it with more care and sensitivity than most other things in a session. For example, if one of your players is an arachnophobe, you might not want to run a spider-themed dungeon with corpses in cocoons without consulting with said player first.
 
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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
edit: and in answer to the other point I would have no problem if a game restricted human males to a 16 intelligence because human males in the game might be stupid does not mean human males are stupid. I don't see fantasy games as a reflection of our reality.

You know, it's really easy to think this when you come from the privileged position. How do you think an African-American player might feel if a game included the same intelligence cap for dark-skinned characters?
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
edit: and in answer to the other point I would have no problem if a game restricted human males to a 16 intelligence because human males in the game might be stupid does not mean human males are stupid. I don't see fantasy games as a reflection of our reality.

No, you wouldn't. You'd see it as an amusing oddity. Because, hey, discrimination against men would be an amusing oddity. Women don't have that benefit.
 

I don't know how I feel about En World opening up to political discussions in the RP forums, I think those kinds of discussions can generate emnity on message boards sometimes....but since its being discussed, might as well put in my two cents. I feel like fantasy settings are just that: fantasy. They ought to be whatever people at the table are comfortable with and desire. If that means modern social sensibilities, why not? If it means having real world -isms exist in tbe setting, maybe even as dominant ways of thinking, i upthink its fine if everyone is okay with it. I would make a distinction between a setting that is sexist (Duke Vendar scoffs at the notion of a female knight) versus a system that is sexist (the designers flatly forbid female fighters or something). I think its okay to include some of these elements for background if everyone is fine with it (i have had women at the table who wanted to play in a setting where equality is the rule, but i have also had women who wanted to play a female character who breaks through the sexist assumptions of the surrounding culture). I think the key is to realize this is one of those touchy areas and requires a lot more attention from the GM than less controversial elements.

its also helpful to remember fantasy isnt the only kind of rpg. I play quite a few historical games and you run into an interesting problem with those when it comes to sexism-racism. Some people dobt want to encounter the historical prejudices and injustices in a game set in the past (and that is pefectly reasonable) but others get just as offended by the idea of glossing over those details (and that is also perfectly reasonable). A WWII game set in Germany that completely ignores the holocaust is going to be a problem for some people. A game set in colonial America that acts as if slavery never happened is going to be an insult to others.

I made a Roman game a while back and one of our historical advisers was a feminist writer. My initial instinct was to just ignore the issue of women and the limitations placed on them by romn society, but she felt this ignored historical realities that were important and ignored key aspects of Roman literature from the time. So she convinced me to address and deal with it in the game. I made a note that people should do whatever they want, and feel free to ifnore the restrictions, but included them because she convinced me it might be just as bad for me to not even address the issue. I still don't know if it was the right call or not, but I think this is sometimes more complicated and less black and white than folks make it out to be.
 

Crothian

First Post
You know, it's really easy to think this when you come from the privileged position. How do you think an African-American player might feel if a game included the same intelligence cap for dark-skinned characters?

No, it is just my opinion. Just because it doesn't bother me doesn't mean it won't bother other males and doesn't make it okay to do.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
No, it is just my opinion. Just because it doesn't bother me doesn't mean it won't bother other males and doesn't make it okay to do.

Fair enough. Often, when someone says "Well, it wouldn't bother me," it comes with the subtext "so it shouldn't bother you." Glad to hear that's not the case.
 

Hammerforge

Explorer
Math doesn't lie. +1 to hit +3 damage vs +3 to hit +6 damage = less potential.

Yes, math doesn't lie, but it's still clear that you're taking things to extremes because 1) strength is not the only path to greatness, even for fighters (consider the effects that dexterity bonuses have on combat, and there are no gender-based limits for dex in 1E), and 2) the mathematical differences you indicate do not even come close to amounting to the vast differences you're implying. The 18/01-50 bonuses are still significant, and while not "great" it would be safe to call them "less great" rather than bad or mediocre, which you seem to be implying. IOW, you are exaggerating to make your point, and your conclusion is a non sequitur.

Perhaps if the game system provided paths other than STR for the fighter class to do its job then having less raw muscle wouldn't be as huge a disadvantage.

There are other paths, namely, dexterity. Also, you're confirming here what I suspected: Being limited to 18/01-50 strength is not a "huge disadvantage." It's not as good an advantage as having 18/00 strength, but to call it a huge disadvantage is going to extremes.
 

MJS

First Post
No, you wouldn't. You'd see it as an amusing oddity. Because, hey, discrimination against men would be an amusing oddity. Women don't have that benefit.
That's right, the women are smarter (cue Grateful Dead)

hey IDK about INT, but is it not measurably true that females psychologically mature ahead of males?
Maybe from now on IMC, males have -1 to WIS. Only female clerics/druids can get to 18 naturally.... I'll send a letter to Wizards asking them to put this in 6E....
 

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