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Hypothetical question for 3pp: 5e goes OGL what would you publish?

Alphastream

Adventurer
It wasn't my intention to leak out this information when it did. I honestly thought a lot of people, including Morrus, knew. Thankfully, someone else has stepped forward which is a relief.

I'm going to make two posts that will likely be unpopular, but I feel they need to be said. First, when it comes to sharing confidential information, it is to the benefit of our industry that its members conduct themselves well. We don't want a dirty industry. we want a clean one. We don't want mistrust, we want trust.

I am really surprised that both Chris (quoted above) and Dale (elsewhere in the thread) seem to think it is okay to disclose and continue to discuss aspects of confidential discussions. If you were under an NDA, then you can't disclose something that isn't public. At all. Ever. You can't even confirm rumors. You can only state what is widely known by the public, because at that point you aren't disclosing anything.

Even if you weren't under an NDA, you were presumably aware that you were part of confidential discussions. They confided in you, trusting that you would not spread that information.

In both situations, you can't just send a private message to Morrus to see if you all know the same information. That isn't okay, because it is still disclosing. At each point where there is a question about whether information is public, the correct process is to go to Wizards and ask them. Morrus shouldn't be naming Mearls, and the thread should likely be deleted.

If the information really is so old that it originated before the playtest was public, and perhaps two Gen Cons ago, then it seems very likely to not be reliable. Whether it is going to end up true or not, industry members should know the process - talk to Wizards and work with them to resolve any issue before spreading rumors.

Our hobby is a fragile one and could use better business practices so that we have more trust between companies, not less. Information leaks like this one give the larger companies (Wizards, Paizo, etc.) more reasons to mistrust small publishers. I hope that Chris Dias, Dale McCoy/Jon Brazer, and other publishers will be more careful with confidential information in the future.
 

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Alphastream

Adventurer
It's simple economics. WOTC knows they made a mistake with the initial GSL, proven later when they revised it. They know they lost considerable market share to Pathfinder and are aware that Paizo's support of 3rd party products contributed to this (as well as their general public presence in general). But in the intervening years, several other companies have allowed free licensing for their rules (13th Age, Fate Core, Savage Worlds, etc), which has fractured a community previous under the umbrella of Paizo, previously under the umbrella of WOTC. If WOTC were to release 5E under OGL and offer licensing freedom similar to Pathfinder or the old 3rd Edition, it would suck all the 3rd Party Companies under the WOTC banner again.

I've made this unpopular assertion in the past, but I really find the benefits of an OGL to be debatable for Wizards.

For smaller publishers, I think the benefits are pretty clear. A smaller RPG company has many limits on their ability to grow their game, from a lack of marketing to the inability to fund a full product spread. An open gaming license means they lose some creative control, but the gains through having a greater presence should almost always outweigh any losses. When I see the 13th Age OGL, when I see Eclipse Phase hack packs and the company seeding their own torrents... those are great moves that seem to truly benefit those RPGs and their companies.

It isn't so clear for the very large companies. Wizards has a marketing department, even without dipping into the larger Hasbro marketing department. Wizards invests heavily in marketing and organized play programs. There aren't too many people in North America who don't know what Dungeons & Dragons is. Amongst gamers, how to find a game and where to find products are common pieces of knowledge.

We can look at the 4E product line and see a very robust product. It really isn't lacking. It didn't need third party products to complete the offering. Just about anything that we might suggest adding to the 4E product line would be a product that is unlikely to see large market share. And yet, if a third party had been allowed to create from the beginning, it might have dipped into something Wizards wanted to do. We know 5E will at some point a book on undead. But if another company publishes it first, Wizards could lose sales when they publish their version. Wizards just doesn't need help with either marketing or product spread.

The biggest proponents of an OGL tend to be freelancers, and our industry is full of them. Sure, if you got started by writing for d20, it can be hard to argue against an OGL. And some have argued that an OGL is necessary to keep great talent. I don't agree. Wizards continues to have a great staff with great talent. They continue to have great relationships with freelancers, including freelancers that also work for Paizo, MCG, and other prominent RPGs.

There is also the d20 glut and crash to consider. There was a lot of poor quality and it isn't clear that this was just an issue with companies learning the ropes. We can look at Kickstarter to see a lot of publishers and individuals making the same mistakes in judging their ability to deliver on quality.

The biggest argument against the OGL is Paizo itself. The OGL prevented Wizards, for the first time, from just moving onto the next edition. Paizo could use the OGL to take away WotC's customer base, keeping them on an older edition - and without a single penny to WotC. The OGL has further enabled the OSR movement and various other competitive initiatives.

It is interesting to see that Monte Cook didn't just replicate the OGL with Numenera, instead creating a separation by which a successful third party must negotiate terms. I would guess that MCG understands that they too have sufficient marketing and have plenty of ideas for products (witness The Strange Kickstarter). They want to engage people's creativity and create a community, but they don't want to see third parties usurp their product line or undermine their financial well-being.

For all those reasons, I don't think Wizards will use the same OGL as before. I can see some reasons for an OGL, but they are very narrow:

First, Wizards could go back to the very original concept of the OGL, which was that Wizards would publish core books and let the rest of the industry publish everything else. I don't think that's the case, however. Wizards seems still to want to publish more than just core books (witness their return to publishing adventures, starting with the excellent Murder in Baldur's Gate).

Second, Wizards could decide to use a revenue sharing model, somewhat like the Apple store. I think that could have worked well with 4E. A way for anyone to publish their own adventure or supplement in an official store where it could be rated could be a way to allow everyone to benefit. Ratings could ensure quality and the store model could share revenue.

Thirdly, Wizards could be viewing this as the final edition of D&D or at least one to exist for a very long time. If that is the case, it could reverse some of what I wrote above. Because the normal product line approach won't be used (we aren't looking at just 4-5 years), it may make sense to allow more ways for third party publishers to use the material and to tap their creativity in keeping the rules and settings and adventures interesting. I really don't see why D&D Next would last longer than any other recent edition, but that may very well be the goal.

My personal hope is that the OGL resembles the MCG version, with perhaps more transparent revenue-sharing. I don't think a "just publish core books" model is really desired (the original concept) and the actual OGL sure seemed to hurt WotC. That seems to call for a new model where Wizards could ensure it benefits from third party efforts and still has come control to prevent enabling the growth of a major competitor.
 

darjr

I crit!
If they make an OGL 2.0, I hope they remove the computing limitations. Won't happen because WotC doesn't control their computing rights. But still, I'd love to see the various chargen programs actually support the system without a nod and a wink.

That said, I could come out of retirement for a DDN that was actually OGL.
I think those computer rights were for games only and they have them back.
 


Balesir

Adventurer
I've made this unpopular assertion in the past, but I really find the benefits of an OGL to be debatable for Wizards.
It's most certainly debatable, in the sense that it can be debated and the core reasons to feel it's "good" or "bad" are primarily philosophical, but I think it's the right thing for WotC to go with, and I'll try to explain why.

The biggest argument against the OGL is Paizo itself. The OGL prevented Wizards, for the first time, from just moving onto the next edition. Paizo could use the OGL to take away WotC's customer base, keeping them on an older edition - and without a single penny to WotC. The OGL has further enabled the OSR movement and various other competitive initiatives.
This seems to me very much like the argument for tariff barriers and import/export controls, and for cartels and trusts and all the other anti-competitive artifacts that businesses and governments have cooked up over the years, and I think it's wrong for the same reason.

Sure, having a monopoly or cartel, or having import tariffs to "protect local industry" looks beneficial for the "insider" businesses at first blush. I'm sure it's many a CEO's wet dream to have a totally dominant market position. But it's bad for business - not just for the customer and the market (although it's more obviously bad for them, to be sure). It's bad for business because it teaches the "protected" businesses to be sloppy and lazy and abusive of their customers. It's bad because it causes "protected" businesses to rest on their laurels and fail to innovate to better serve their customers - and I actually think early TSR fell afoul of this precise issue.

Having standards and shared technologies makes for a better marketplace. If something works well, instead of ring-fencing it we should be taking it as a standard and innovating beyond it. The alternative is, as seen in some parts of the car industry, one manufacturer keeping the obvious best method to themselves while others create wierd "works just like" cludges to avoid litigation - and the customer gets to choose some good features and a few cludges in any configuration she chooses, but no "all round good car".

From an economic point of view, "trade" means doing what you do best and sharing the results; the freer trade is, the more this can happen and the better for everybody in the market. The only really cogent wrinkle found in this has been the need to make sure the originators of really good ideas get due reward - but that can and should happen through licensing, not exclusivity.

Given all this, I think the OGL was one of the best things to happen to gaming in general, but I also think it's thoroughly good for WotC. A truly strong company with a truly strong system will thrive on competition - including competition with its own previous products. The real error WotC made concerning the OGL, in my view, was not creating it - it was abandoning it (and, in the process, ceding control on the most popular of their own previous creations, 3E). 4E was, indeed, a sound system - it's my favourite form of D&D by far - but it had considerable opprobrium heaped on it by customers for the licensing arrangements set for it and I think it suffered as a result in the marketplace.

If WotC had kept with OGL for 4E I think you might have seen two important things happen which may well have made their current position better:

1) 4E would not have suffered the attacks and deprecation that were aimed at WotC because of the abandonment of the OGL. That's not to say some would still not have liked the new departures - no edition will be universally beloved - but it would not have attracted the hate from jilted customers and 3pps who saw something they valued in WotC's de-facto business offering being rescinded from them.

2) It would have been far more obvious that ceasing support for 3.5 was a bad move - that retaining some level of control over a competing product was the only sensible thing to do. Keeping the core books in print and offering PDFs of supplements - maybe with conversions for current adventures (although, er, hmmm...) - would have sufficed.

Holding a product range with two competing products, 4E and Pathfinder, is undoubtedly less than the management at WotC dreamed of when they formulated their strategy for 4E, but it's a lot more than they ended up with.
 
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The idea that OGL failed is somewhat silly. It did exactly what it was supposed to do. It created the largest network of RPG players, and those players all know how to play D&D3.x (and/or its variants). Most RPG players who know multiple systems, know some variant of D&D3.x. There are fewer multiple system players who know D&D2 or D&D4 (or GURPS or whatever else). The Network Effect was the plan and WotC abandoned that network with D&D4. They thought the brand was the network. They found out the game system was the network.

If DDN has OGL support, WotC could regain the top spot in the network. If not, they will still be competing with the network. Without OGL support, DDN attempts to reclaim that top spot based on brand alone. D&D4 failed to do that.

NOTE: I'm not talking about players considering D&D3.x their favorite. Being the top of the network makes you the system people all know and can communicate about other systems through. The idea about being at the top of the network is that if people can't agree on an outlier system to play, there's always the system everyone already knows.
 

darjr

I crit!
That's a good point. Personally, there have been several times, when considering a change in genre, a D20 variant would come up as a top game to consider because the players knew it.
 

Alphastream

Adventurer
Sure, having a monopoly or cartel, or having import tariffs to "protect local industry" looks beneficial for the "insider" businesses at first blush. I'm sure it's many a CEO's wet dream to have a totally dominant market position. But it's bad for business - not just for the customer and the market (although it's more obviously bad for them, to be sure). It's bad for business because it teaches the "protected" businesses to be sloppy and lazy and abusive of their customers
D&D has never existed in a space where it lacked competition. We can read accounts going back to the very beginning and everyone has always been taking competition seriously. For example, the very first adventure was created by a third party, as was the first campaign setting. Those are good examples both of the benefits of competition and the existence of that competition. The competition was continual, from Wee Warriors (involving both competition and partnerships) to Numenera (involving former staff).

This has never been a monopoly, though D&D has been dominant for the majority of its history. What is interesting about Paizo is that it is providing another D&D. As a good friend of mine is fond of saying, "I'm not sure it is good for the industry's top games to be D&D and D&D." Until very recently (thank you, Kickstarter), D&D and Pathfinder were so utterly dominant that all other systems were practically indie games. It wasn't good for the industry, because Paizo and WotC don't greatly benefit from cross-pollination. While they often intermix staff (a good example is Chris Sims, who worked at WotC, then at Paizo, then at WotC), the games are too similar and too rooted to truly inspire one another.

It is really only the recent arrival of Kickstarter that has created a platform for other games to attract greater notice. Of perhaps equal importance has been D&D Next. By creating a long playtest period it has encouraged many groups to consider options and play other games in addition to just D&D. We see that effect even with Paizo supporters, and it's a very healthy thing.

All of this is different from saying that an OGL is good because it challenges DnD. I really don't think it does. Wizards sees plenty of different freelancers, both new blood and old d20 contributors. It isn't missing out on seeing new ideas for D&D. Having an OGL wouldn't somehow change 'monopoly status', both because it isn't a monopoly and because if anything a dominant OGL would again hurt gaming by making DnD too big a thing compared to other games. As an example, consider when Call of Cthulhu, Legend of the Five Rings, Star Wars, and many other RPGs all went d20. While there were some good aspects to that, the majority of fans of those games will point to a non-d20 edition as their favorite. And every one of those games moved away from d20 to better represent their game. (Spycraft is doing so with its excellent upcoming third edition).

You made a number of points about free trade and the like, but they all rest on the concept that an OGL creates competition and new ideas, which I dispute. Especially as compared to a landscape where there is a single D&D with different RPGs rather than A) everyone writing for d20 or B) D&D and Pathfinder dominating. My hope is that D&D can be a great flagship brand for the hobby while other very different compelling RPGs provide a strong competition and influence. Either not having an OGL or having a restrictive OGL would help create that competition.

If WotC had kept with OGL for 4E I think you might have seen two important things happen which may well have made their current position better:
1) 4E would not have suffered the attacks and deprecation that were aimed at WotC because of the abandonment of the OGL. That's not to say some would still not have liked the new departures - no edition will be universally beloved - but it would not have attracted the hate from jilted customers and 3pps who saw something they valued in WotC's de-facto business offering being rescinded from them.
2) It would have been far more obvious that ceasing support for 3.5 was a bad move - that retaining some level of control over a competing product was the only sensible thing to do. Keeping the core books in print and offering PDFs of supplements - maybe with conversions for current adventures (although, er, hmmm...) - would have sufficed.
I don't buy this at all. 3.5 was dying a certain death when WotC started 4E. We were deep into "Complete Adventuring Companion" type of material. There was practically nothing left to sell, and fans had been clear that they didn't want another minor edition change (they hated the .5). Sales were dropping and there was nothing left to offer gamers. Even books like the Book of Nine Swords were doing poorly, from all accounts. Importantly, the d20 market did nothing to change this. Nothing at all. It was not vastly pumping up the sales of core books at that time to where WotC could sit back. It was not creating amazing innovation that reinvigorated the market. Not at all. Instead, the only thing that reinvigorated the market was Wizards leaving it. Only when fans were faced with having to play a very different edition were they able to be open to accepting a 3.75. And that was only possible due to the OGL.
 


Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I don't quite buy that. I think there was some room to improve the edition, but Pathfinder's success surely shows third edition's death was far from a sure thing.

Paizo got to start again with - effectively - 3.75; that's why. They weren't trying to continue selling sourcebooks for 3.5, an ecosystem which was becoming tapped out in terms of well-selling content.
 

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