D&D 5E I just don't buy the reasoning behind "damage on a miss".

[TwoSix]

Who cares about fiat abilities? The GWF PC can still roll to hit and hit fairly just like anyone who isn't the GWF PC.

I do. The mage can roll fairly to hit with fireball just like anyone else.

 

[pemerton]

But not no matter what level the kobold. You think the only kobolds are the bog standard ones out there?

I don't see how that is relevant. My point was that, no matter how graceful my kobold (or pixie with 3 hp, which was the "pixie dodge" example), and no matter how close to the edge of the explosion, and no matter how thick it's armour and now matter how wet the hide on its shield, it dies. Automatically.

I don't see how this is "realistic". It's fiat.

The equalizer that was left out of [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] 's scenario was that the person throwing alchemical fire will suffer an AoO. In other words he could very well end up taking more damage than the auto-splash damage does to his opponent. Does the GWF have any consequences like that to his ability?

Let's not forget that Alchemists Fire would more than likely take up two actions to use it, one action to pull it out and another to throw. Not to mention they cost money and you are limited in how many you can carry.

OK, so now we're off "believability" objections and onto balance ones. (Though cost and encumbrance aren't serious issues above a certain level.)

 

[Imaro]

I don't see how that is relevant. My point was that, no matter how graceful my kobold (or pixie with 3 hp, which was the "pixie dodge" example), and no matter how close to the edge of the explosion, and no matter how thick it's armour and now matter how wet the hide on its shield, it dies. Automatically.

I don't see how this is "realistic". It's fiat.

Actually, and I said this before, a kobold rogue with uncanny dodge can take no damage from a fireball... that's why what type of kobold it is... is relevant. there are NPC's in 3.x that can have enough levels (and hp's) to survive the fireball as well... so yeah some people can survive it and some can't is kinda believable. Isn't that what happens in real life with explosions?

 

[Imaro]

OK, so now we're off "believability" objections and onto balance ones. (Though cost and encumbrance aren't serious issues above a certain level.)

Uhm, Mistwell kinda left the "only believability" arguments behind when he wanted to compare alchemical fire and the GWF's auto-damage ability, in his claims that they were similar mechanically.

 

[pemerton]

Actually, and I said this before, a kobold rogue with uncanny dodge can take no damage from a fireball... that's why what type of kobold it is... is relevant.

OK, so what sort of pixie it is is relevant too If it's the type of pixie that, mechanically, cannot avoid taking damage from the GWF, then we know that in fact it's not the sort of pixie that creates pixie dodge problems.

Similarly for the graceful dodger - we know that a character who can't avoid taking GWF damage is, in fact, not as graceful as all that!

In other words, if FitM is good for the kobold/fireball goose, I don't see why it's not good for the pixie/GWF fighter.

 

[pemerton]

Uhm, Mistwell kinda left the "only believability" arguments behind when he wanted to compare alchemical fire and the GWF's auto-damage ability, in his claims that they were similar mechanically.

I don't see why. I find unavoidable splashes as less believable than unavoidable warriors.

 

[Imaro]

OK, so what sort of pixie it is is relevant too If it's the type of pixie that, mechanically, cannot avoid taking damage from the GWF, then we know that in fact it's not the sort of pixie that creates pixie dodge problems.

I am trying to parse what you are trying to say here, and I'm not sure what it is. Could you clarify this?

Similarly for the graceful dodger - we know that a character who can't avoid taking GWF damage is, in fact, not as graceful as all that!

Huh??

In other words, if FitM is good for the kobold/fireball goose, I don't see why it's not good for the pixie/GWF fighter.

Because Evasion in 5e only works on a hit... Ok, I am confused... what exactly is the point this post is trying to make??

 

[Imaro]

I don't see why. I find unavoidable splashes as less believable than unavoidable warriors.

Ok... you're entitled to your opinion... I think that since @Mistwell 's scenario only deals with an opponent who is in an adjacent square to the thrower, and only when you specifically target the opponent as opposed to the area around him (By aiming at the intersection) ... it's believable that they get splashed even on a miss... I mean they're pretty close and you are specifically aiming at them with a weapon that breaks and splashes outward...

But then again, you might be right, it might be more believable that a comparatively inexperienced fighter wielding a Greatsword...always manages to hurt, tire out, mess up the footing, etc. of a vastly more skilled fighter. I guess.

 

[pemerton]

I am trying to parse what you are trying to say here, and I'm not sure what it is. Could you clarify this?

<snip>

what exactly is the point this post is trying to make??

You seemed happy to infer, from the fact that typical kobolds have no chance of surviving a fireball, that they were the type of kobold who is unable to avoid such a fate - eg they are kobolds who are not very good at dodging explosions (even when on the edge), not very tough (even when wearing really thick armour), etc.

That is, you seemed to be letting the mechanical possibilities shape the fiction, rather than working from a preconception of the fiction by which one might then adjudicate the plausibility of the mechanics.

My point was that, if that methodology for correlating fiction and mechanics is acceptable, then I don't see how the "pixie dodge" problem for GWF, or the graceful dodger problem, even arises - we can simply read off the mechanics that our 3 hp pixie was not that good at dodging after all, and that our so-called "graceful dodger" was not that graceful after all.

And in the same way that you can build a dodging kobold by giving it (say) Uncanny Dodge (in Next terms), or Evasion (in 3E terms), so you build a dodging pixie by giving it (say) immunity to miss damage, or an ability that lets it make a DEX save vs Miss damage. And you would build a graceful dodger by giving it a similar sort of ability.

 

[Imaro]

You seemed happy to infer, from the fact that typical kobolds have no chance of surviving a fireball, that they were the type of kobold who is unable to avoid such a fate - eg they are kobolds who are not very good at dodging explosions (even when on the edge), not very tough (even when wearing really thick armour), etc.

Well first, I don't agree with your premise... "typical" kobolds in 3.x according to the SRD have 4 hit points, so actually (however slim) "typical" kobolds in that edition could survive a fireball cast by a 3rd level sorcerer or wizard.

That is, you seemed to be letting the mechanical possibilities shape the fiction, rather than working from a preconception of the fiction by which one might then adjudicate the plausibility of the mechanics.

I did no such thing, I corrected your statement, nothing more and nothing less.

My point was that, if that methodology for correlating fiction and mechanics is acceptable, then I don't see how the "pixie dodge" problem for GWF, or the graceful dodger problem, even arises - we can simply read off the mechanics that our 3 hp pixie was not that good at dodging after all, and that our so-called "graceful dodger" was not that graceful after all.

Or we could get rid of GWF damage on a miss and not invalidate those narratives... Your point seems to be, if you don't like it... just accept it, are you serious?? I don't see this as a solution for I or anyone else who doesn't like the mechanic, especially since there is still time to voice concerns and be heard insofar as changes to mechanics and/or fiction go.

And in the same way that you can build a dodging kobold by giving it (say) Uncanny Dodge (in Next terms), or Evasion (in 3E terms), so you build a dodging pixie by giving it (say) immunity to miss damage, or an ability that lets it make a DEX save vs Miss damage. And you would build a graceful dodger by giving it a similar sort of ability.

Ok, just tell me where these mechanics are located in the playtest material...