D&D 5E I just don't buy the reasoning behind "damage on a miss".

[Imaro]

isnt that a spell you didnt get until 5th level?

I think you might be right but since a "typical" kobold can have between 1 and 8 hp's... I don't think it invalidates my point.

 

[Imaro]

Not any effect, no. But there's plenty of effects that are perfectly achievable with nonmagical abilities that are not made available - bleeding, severing limbs, dazing, blinding, etc - and which could be.

Can't some of these things be replicated with feats? I know there is a feat in Pathfinder that let's you cause an opponent to bleed, blind an opponent and daze them. i'm not sure about severing limbs... are there spells that allow a wizard to severe limbs... or were you speaking to magic items like vorpal swords (which are usually used by martial characters).

 

[Garthanos]

I think you might be right but since a "typical" kobold can have between 1 and 8 hp's... I don't think it invalidates my point.

I just noted a miss-fire didnt read far enough back so I probably missed the point rolling for something that might happen 1 in 14000 times or less is...

 

[Imaro]

I just noted a miss-fire didnt read far enough back so I probably missed the point rolling for something that might happen 1 in 14000 times or less is...

It was stated that a typical kobold could not survive a fireball... in return I stated that this was false and that it was possible for a "typical" kobold in 3.x to survive a fireball spell. And I'm not sure how you play but yeah my group would actually roll to see whether the kobolds made their save as well as what the amount of damage they received was... or are you saying because something happens rarely in the game it should be reduced to a 0% chance and regulated to DM fiat?

 

[Garthanos]

It was stated that a typical kobold could not survive a fireball... in return I stated that this was false and that it was possible for a "typical" kobold in 3.x to survive a fireball spell. And I'm not sure how you play but yeah my group would actually roll

I would call them dead and leave the tedious dice worship to others...

Calling something 1 in 14000 or so rare... is a hilarious understatement.

 

[Imaro]

I would call them dead and leave the tedious dice worship to others...

Calling something 1 in 14000 or so rare... is a hilarious understatement.

Well that's great for your games and you're entitled to houserule however you want but when discussing the actual mechanics of the game and whether something is or is not possible... how Garthanos chooses to do it isn't really the point.

EDIT: I wonder if we were talking about PC's being caught in the same situation... would you rule them auto-dead?

 

[Bluenose]

I agree. I don't think damage on a miss is one of them (nor are instantaneous healing or mind control), but there are many abilities that are achievable magically and should be part of the nonmagical combat. In fact, things like DoaM take book space and designer time that could be used on better mechanics for representing martial skill and the seriousness of getting stabbed/slashed/bludgeoned.

Well, considering GWF takes up two or three lines I don't think it's taking up very much space that could be used for better mechanics. Though frankly I disagree at a fundamental level that there's very much stabbing.slashing/bludgeoning contact involved in the reduction of hit points, at least until the very end of it. I regard it as far more about positioning and morale rather than actual injuries. Of course this contradicts some aspects of hit points, but so does any other approach.

Can't some of these things be replicated with feats? I know there is a feat in Pathfinder that let's you cause an opponent to bleed, blind an opponent and daze them. i'm not sure about severing limbs... are there spells that allow a wizard to severe limbs... or were you speaking to magic items like vorpal swords (which are usually used by martial characters).

I wouldn't know, because I don't play Pathfinder. A feat for that would not surprise me at all. And I remember seeing a player using a spell to remove limbs, though I don't know the source. There's certainly Wither Limb, which has a similar effect, from a WotC source (Libris Mortis perhaps?).

 

[Imaro]

I wouldn't know, because I don't play Pathfinder. A feat for that would not surprise me at all. And I remember seeing a player using a spell to remove limbs, though I don't know the source. There's certainly Wither Limb, which has a similar effect, from a WotC source (Libris Mortis perhaps?).

My point is that there is a precedence for these actions to be performed by martial characters... if they devote the resources to accomplishing them.

 

[Garthanos]

Well that's great for your games and you're entitled to houserule however you want but when discussing the actual mechanics of the game and whether something is or is not possible... how Garthanos chooses to do it isn't really the point.

I dont bother having people roll for dying in a bathroom fall either even though huge numbers of people do in real life.

EDIT: I wonder if we were talking about PC's being caught in the same situation... would you rule them auto-dead?

Probably let them roll.. but you know
The game actually has a hugely frustrating piece of mechanics in this situation think about it.. there is very large likelihood of yay you succeed on the save but you still die horribly in flames, that is a different definition of success and save both.

 

[Manbearcat]

Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, but how does this help in determining whether damage should be taken for things like alchemical fire (where the metal armor may block you from being hit directly but the armor heats up) and fireball, which could have the same thing happen... or acid where some may burn through the armor (represented in the abstract of course) You seem to be basing damage purely on impact of a hard splatter in this post and that's not necessarily where the damage comes from with grenade-like weapons and magical explosions in D&D.

Because the physics of a meteor striking the earth isn't far from the physical of a hailstone striking a roofing system which isn't far from from a fireball where a solid suddenly turns into a very hot gas, and the hot gas suddenly expands, with the velocity of the expansion being very high. There are differences but there is plenty of physical overlap. You have mass, you have impact velocity, you have impact angle, you have rapid expansion, you have the exchange of thermal energy and heat transfer between two systems, you have diffusion.

Further, Fireball doesn't model a real world explosion very well because it basically assumes equal energy transfer within a sphere and a boundary layer (rather than considerable at ground zero and then progressively dissipating) . So its kind of like the psuedo-boundary layer of a hailstorm so I thought that was a somewhat sensible comparison.

As far as "acid bombs", there is less similarity there, as it has some unique components, but there is still some overlap with several standard physics processes. An acid bomb would be much more in line with a cone due to the overriding impact of its angular momentum on its deployment/dispersal.

With all of these phenomena, we still have most of the same processes at work. I would also state that a melee combatant wielding a large weapon in close proximity to a target has considerable control over whether the deployment of the effect (the weapon colliding with the body) is at a more or less oblique angle with respect to the target area. I could see a warrior who has achieved great proficiency with a Great Weapon akin to a 7-8 foot radius "hailstorm" that has "controlled horizontal winds and updrafts"!