D&D 5E Now that "damage on a miss" is most likely out of the picture, are you happy?

[I'm A Banana]

The thing I don't get (and [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] in particular has helped make this point clear to me) is why we haven't had 40 years of objections to magic missile, fireball and lightning bolt along these lines.

(If the answer is "Because they could be disrupted while being cast" then I'll reduce the period of years to 14 - because for the whole lifetime of 3E it's been possible to auo-succeed on casting defensively.)

In my personal experience, at least, the emotional extremes come less from missing, but from being hit by the enemy for significant amounts of damage.

The thing with the biggest influence on this as far as in-play tension goes is that magic missiles and fireballs and lighting bolts are limited resources.

Loss aversion is huge. Whenever you want to volunteer to give up something you have, it produces some delicious dramatic tension. The longer you go without it, the bigger your aversion to getting rid of it. 1/day resources in D&D typically don't need a miss chance to keep them interesting, because even having to use them is a feeling of failure and loss (as long as there's more than 1 encounter per recharge anyway -- 15 Minute Workdays and Wands of X explode that assumption by functionally removing the loss aversion).

Any at-will power that auto-hits is going to have the same problem -- 4e's revised Magic Missile is pretty dull, too. Functional, efficient, but dull. It's naked math, and using it feels a little like doing your taxes. At best, it's effective!

Compare that with a 1e Magic Missile which also auto-hits, but which a caster will dither and debate about using over a dart, and you can see that loss aversion at work!

Personally, I'm into pushing the game to more extreme results, because those results are more interesting. It's a bit of a playstyle thing, so I wouldn't want to force it on everyone, but the more "AAAARGH!" and "WOOOOO!" that goes on, the better.

 

[Uller]

Personally, I'm into pushing the game to more extreme results, because those results are more interesting. It's a bit of a playstyle thing, so I wouldn't want to force it on everyone, but the more "AAAARGH!" and "WOOOOO!" that goes on, the better.

Right. I also prefer things (especially for my players) to be a bit more swingy. I don't mind DoaM in principle...but it should be limited or usable in very narrow circumstances (as said in other threads: AoEs, grenades, etc). But for GWF I would prefer bonus dice to damage on a hit, greater crit range, more dice (not maxed) on crit, etc...after all, someone who chooses a BFS (Big Fn Sword) as their go to weapon are people who want to do MORE damage. No one says "remember that time I killed the BBEG by widdling him down with 3hp autohits..." but instead "remember that time Rorf took off the wizard's head on a single lucky hit right before he finished off the party with a fireball?"

 

[Kobold Stew]

While I had no problem with DOAM, I do feel that the expanded crit range is the most likely replacement mechanism I have yet seen proposed. It is simple, immediate,and gives a clear advantage where one is needed without being disproportionately powerful compared to the other options.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Unless the DM is fudging rolls, if the Fighter manages to kill the BBEG with 3 damage chip attacks, the BBEG wasn't an actual threat in the first place.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Unless the DM is fudging rolls, if the Fighter manages to kill the BBEG with 3 damage chip attacks, the BBEG wasn't an actual threat in the first place.

Are you saying that in your games, a big bad has never been down to a few hp? He/she was always taken out while at high hp levels?

Taking out a big bad with a 3 damage chip attack can come up far more often and is far more likely than completely wearing down such a foe with such attacks. To me, a finishing shot with autodamage feels so meh.

The bad guy morgue will be filled with corpses all with the autopsy report reading: Cause of death-standing in proximity to great weapon.

 

[Uller]

Taking out a big bad with a 3 damage chip attack can come up far more often and is far more likely than completely wearing down such a foe with such attacks. To me, a finishing shot with autodamage feels so meh.

It depends. When playing a mage getting an enemy down to just a few hp and finishing him with magic missile feels like "checkmate, ol' boy" completely in keeping with that class and some of the styles of play it supports. But rolling a 1 on an attack only to have the dm say you won anyway does seem a bit anticlimactic.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Are you saying that in your games, a big bad has never been down to a few hp? He/she was always taken out while at high hp levels?

Taking out a big bad with a 3 damage chip attack can come up far more often and is far more likely than completely wearing down such a foe with such attacks. To me, a finishing shot with autodamage feels so meh.

The bad guy morgue will be filled with corpses all with the autopsy report reading: Cause of death-standing in proximity to great weapon.

And by the time the BBEG is down to low enough HP where DoaM will auto-kill him, the fight's pretty much over anyways.

And try: Cause of death, seriously wounded, tried blocking a greatsword swing with his shield. Impact shattered arm in 5 places, head lopped off with a follow-up swing.

 

[Dausuul]

Are you saying that in your games, a big bad has never been down to a few hp? He/she was always taken out while at high hp levels?

Taking out a big bad with a 3 damage chip attack can come up far more often and is far more likely than completely wearing down such a foe with such attacks. To me, a finishing shot with autodamage feels so meh.

Well, it depends on the source of the autodamage. If you're using a Cleave-style attack where you deal most of your damage to a primary target and chip damage to a nearby secondary, how likely is it that you're sending your primary attack at a mook and chipping the Big Bad? Almost invariably it's the other way around. If the PCs do go after mooks in preference to the Big Bad, it typically means they're adopting a strategy of "clear out the riff-raff first, then tackle the Big Bad when it doesn't have its buddies to help out." That means the Big Bad will still have most of its hit points left while the mooks are dying. It may eat a little chip damage but it won't die from it.

However, damage on a miss is another matter. That can and will take out big enemies as well as little.

 

[Cybit]

Not sure if it has been reported - but Mearls explicitly stated on twitter that DoaM is gone from NEXT like yesterday or so.

 

[tsadkiel]

Not sure if it has been reported - but Mearls explicitly stated on twitter that DoaM is gone from NEXT like yesterday or so.

He said damage on a HIT was gone. It was a joke.