D&D 5E What's the rush? Has the "here and now" been replaced by the "next level" attitude?

[Aenghus]

When I restarted my 4e campaign, I bumped the PCs up two levels a time at low heroic levels, as a signiicant part of my group prefer higher level PCs, but we had some new players who couldn't immediately cope with the complexity of high level PCs.

Also I didn't start them of at high level immediately as I find that PCs grow better when they get some low level play - a high level PC created in one go is a lot of work. and often the end product isn't what was originally expected.

I find actual play helps shake out what works in practice from what doesn't work. If the PC doesn't gel in play, it's easier to replace them at low level and still develop a viable replacement in play.

Tinkering with the advancement rate is an important part of campaign design, and the expectations of players are distinctly relevant. The goals of the campaign,the desired real world expected length, player expectations all inform the decision.

I remember back in AD&D when I played a magic-user I was totally focused on surviving to 5th level and (had a chance of) getting Fireball (ah, back when Fireball was a good spell!) and having enough hit points to survive a hit or two. Playing low level M-Us was an exercise in terror as absolutely everything, including housecats, was a deadly risk. I wouldn't play M-Us in games that would stay at very low levels as for me the fun with M-Us was at level 5+.

Extrapolating to the general case, "Fun later" classes and concepts are a main reason for wanting to level quickly, and have been built into D&D from the earliest days.

 

[Umbran]

With faster leveling there is the danger that the focus of the game shifts more towards gaining levels and assorted goodies skinner box style instead of playing out the game.

Okay, first off, the intimation of, "this playstyle is okay, but what others enjoy makes them like rats" is insulting. Stop it, please.

That said - With faster leveling there is a *perceived* danger. Even this many pages in, I haven't been convinced that this is a real danger to gaming in a broad sense, or that there is even any harm in it if it does happen - if the player is having fun, by engaging with the content, by enjoying growth in power, or both, the player is still having fun! Nor has there been anything that convinces me that enjoying and looking forward to leveling is mutually exclusive of engaging with content. Or maybe there was always a group of gamers for whom leveling would have been the bigger part of the game naturally, and now they are being served properly?

Moreover, slowing leveling down in no way ensures that the player will engage with your content! You seem to have glommed on to the idea that fast leveling distracts the player from content, and tried to make this a fault of fast leveling, or the players. You have not seemed to consider that maybe, just maybe, the content being presented isn't itself all that hot, and never has been? That now, with something to compete with, the content is being found wanting?

 

[Celebrim]

Okay, first off, the intimation of, "this playstyle is okay, but what others enjoy makes them like rats" is insulting. Stop it, please.

Wait, what....???

The use of skinner boxing techniques in games is a well known fact. It is not insulting to the participants to mention that skinner boxing techniques are being used. It's not insulting to players to use them or bad for game designers to do so. It is certainly not a comparison of people to rats beyond the fact that both are mammals with sophisticated brains and pleasure centers and if you find that degree of comparison insulting, perhaps the problem is you and not the person making the statement.

Look, I played Diablo III for hundreds of hours and World of Tanks for hundreds of hours more. Both rely on skinner boxing techniques. In both cases I was well aware of the elements of the design that were informed consciously or unconsciously by the work of BF Skinner, and in neither case was in denigrating myself or anyone else for enjoying the 'electric buzz' of being dosed with pleasure by the game.

If you aren't actually conversant on this topic, I highly recommend this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c. And indeed, the whole Extra Credits video library is worth watching if you are into game design.

 

[Aenghus]

D&D playstyles do tend to change as characters level up, and some plots, some playstyles become more difficult to run as the PCs become more powerful.

I find this is fine when everyone involved is aware of this, but there can be problems when it comes by surprise. There can also be problems when expections about advancement rate or the campaign cut-off point differ widely amongst the participants, or there is poor communication, misrepresentation or dishonesty about these or other issues.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

At the rate Wizards has increased the level of advancement, I still wonder why they even use a level based format any more. What's the use in levels is people want to fly through them as quickly as possible and the game is designed to cater to it?

I think D&D would be better off using XP to upgrade certain aspects of your character instead of levels if they are going to continue this increase in speed.

 

[Manbearcat]

Originally Posted by Umbran

Okay, first off, the intimation of, "this playstyle is okay, but what others enjoy makes them like rats" is insulting. Stop it, please.

Wait, what....???

The use of skinner boxing techniques in games is a well known fact. It is not insulting to the participants to mention that skinner boxing techniques are being used. It's not insulting to players to use them or bad for game designers to do so. It is certainly not a comparison of people to rats beyond the fact that both are mammals with sophisticated brains and pleasure centers and if you find that degree of comparison insulting, perhaps the problem is you and not the person making the statement.

Come on Celebrim. The passive-aggressive, pejorative use of the term as an indictment of a playstyle as shallow and lacking in sophistication is clear and present. The overt indictment of folks who use xp at any pace determined to be accelerated is simultaneously used to deride people for lack of patience and wanting their cake and wanting it NOW (as children). They don't appreciate the process or the aspect of the past-time that is equal parts artful aesthetic. They only (or at least primarily) are interested in the proportion that is the "conveyer belt of fun (NOW)" part of the leisure activity. Hence, their tastes are immature or unrefined. From there it is a minor bit of (biased) extrapolation or (reckless) correlation to dismiss the system(s) they play or mechanics they prefer.

That isn't assuming motives. It is fundamental. "The Handbook for RPG Warring" is premised upon it. I hope we can dispense with any ignorance of that reality.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Come on Celebrim. The passive-aggressive, pejorative use of the term as an indictment of a playstyle as shallow and lacking in sophistication is clear and present. The overt indictment of folks who use xp at any pace determined to be accelerated is simultaneously used to deride people for lack of patience and wanting their cake and wanting it NOW (as children). They don't appreciate the process or the aspect of the past-time that is equal parts artful aesthetic. They only (or at least primarily) are interested in the proportion that is the "conveyer belt of fun (NOW)" part of the leisure activity. Hence, their tastes are immature or unrefined. From there it is a minor bit of (biased) extrapolation or (reckless) correlation to dismiss the system(s) they play or mechanics they prefer.

That isn't assuming motives. It is fundamental. "The Handbook for RPG Warring" is premised upon it. I hope we can dispense with any ignorance of that reality.

Sorry but the fact that these people want to rush through levels to get to what they see as "juicy bits" has effected the design of the game and I don't like it.

 

[Manbearcat]

Sorry but the fact that these people want to rush through levels to get to what they see as "juicy bits" has effected the design of the game and I don't like it.

Ok. Good to know. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Umbran]

Sorry but the fact that these people want to rush through levels to get to what they see as "juicy bits" has effected the design of the game and I don't like it.

We must all deal with occasional disappointments, and things we don't like. No single design is going to please everybody.

Thankfully, ways to adjust advancement speed are several, mind-bogglingly obvious, superbly easy to implement, and some are usually covered as options in the rulebooks.

 

[Derren]

We must all deal with occasional disappointments, and things we don't like. No single design is going to please everybody.

Thankfully, ways to adjust advancement speed are several, mind-bogglingly obvious, superbly easy to implement, and some are usually covered as options in the rulebooks.

There are of course all the other design elements influenced by this level gain focus, some of which I described previously, which are not as easily changed...