D&D 5E Player's Handbook Races

[steeldragons]

The list is exactly as expected.

I will express disappointment [though hardly surprise] that Drow are going to be in there. It could have been much much worse.

I can run a 1e or 2e style game just fine, as is. Just exclude, of course, the Dragonborn and Tieflings from the game world (as they've always been). But they're in there for those that like/want them at their table. So, bully.

Would have liked the aasimar in there if they were putting in Tieflings...but again, no more a surprise they aren't there as it is the Drow are. [Albeit they desperately need/would benefit greatly from a name change...can't really take a "decended from supernaturally good other planar beings" seriously when everyone who hears or looks at the name cracks "ass" jokes. Kinda tough to take serious and/or feel kewlz when the other players are all asking "How's yer ASS-imar today?" or the DM says, "What's the ASS-n-more doin' this round?" So yeah, name change. Think about it.]

Again, no surprises. No complaints. Nothing, really, to get bent about.

So, what's next?

 

[Neonchameleon]

"My ancestors made a pact with the devil(s)" didn't. Well, okay, it could have been one variation on the old narrative.

I mean, it's a perfectly FINE story, it's just not the story I was looking to explore with tieflings.

Can you tell me how "My ancestors made a pact with the devils" is significantly different from "My ancestors slept with devils" as a story?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Can you tell me how "My ancestors made a pact with the devils" is significantly different from "My ancestors slept with devils" as a story?

I explored the significant differences upthread when laying out the major story differences between the pre-4e and 4e tieflings' stories.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I explored the significant differences upthread when laying out the major story differences between the pre-4e and 4e tieflings' stories.

And at best I see a distinction without a difference you're drawing.

These are different aesthetics. A little superficially similar (humans tainted by evil), but very different core narratives. (Forex, there is no one to blame in the PS tiefling's story -- evil is a reality of the world that character lives in. For the Turathi tiefling, there is a specific historical sin that casts a stain that they are supposedly working to overcome.)

If anything you have that backwards. For the Turathi tiefling almost everyone to blame is long dead. There's no one currently to blame. In Planescape, Tieflings are described as half-human, half something else. If they are reviled then there is absolutely someone who will be blamed for them being a Tiefling.

And the 3.X Tiefling behaves differently from the rest. Far from the silver tongued devil it's the wretchedly different. That's a huge change.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

In Planescape, Tieflings are described as half-human, half something else. If they are reviled then there is absolutely someone who will be blamed for them being a Tiefling.

Well not necessarily, in Planescape. What you're describing is actually a Cambion, most of the time. A Tiefling is usually of uncertain and potentially distant lower-planar heritage, at least IIRC. I can check the PS book later.

 

[I'm A Banana]

If anything you have that backwards. For the Turathi tiefling almost everyone to blame is long dead. There's no one currently to blame.

Did you miss where I used the word "historical"?

In Planescape, Tieflings are described as half-human, half something else. If they are reviled then there is absolutely someone who will be blamed for them being a Tiefling.

That's not a really accurate view on the PS tiefling, I'm afraid. Their introduction states thus: "It's not advisable to ask a tiefling about his or her ancestors, the answer wouldn't likely be pleasant. Part human, and part something else, tieflings are the orphans of the planes. They can be described as humans who've been plane-touched."

Which is super-duper vague. Humans who have been altered somewhere in their ancestry by something unpleasant on the planes.

They get a little more specific in the Planewalker's Handbook, but only a little: "Obviously human and 'something-else' crossbreeds, the 'something else' in the tieflings' case is usually assumed to be lower-planar." And then under the Role-Playing section: "So what if somewhere in your family's distant past one of them was a fiend or other such being?"

All of which just points to the idea that people don't trust them because of their nature, not necessarily because of their deeds or the deeds of their ancestors. You *know* a Turathi tiefling's ancestors bartered for power with the D&D version of Satan. You can go to the place where they did it and fight the evil that lingers there. A PS tiefling's ancestors may have been innocent victims or may have been deceived by illusions or charms or may have been unwitting experiments. Or they may have bartered for power with the D&D version of Satan, too, but because of their explicit lack of culture and outcast nature, that really doesn't matter anymore to a PS tiefling PC -- whatever barter happened left no real lasting effects aside from their existence. You can go to the place where that might've happened, but the pact wasn't particularly notable in the grand scheme of things, so most folks don't even remember it.

And the 3.X Tiefling behaves differently from the rest. Far from the silver tongued devil it's the wretchedly different. That's a huge change.

I'm cool with low Charisma tieflings who got the short end of the charismatic evil stick and have trouble with confidence and persuasion and attracting followers and the like -- a tiefling whose sulfurous odor leads to weak self-confidence, whose flash of red in their eyes was an embarrassment, whose Vrok ancestry left them sqwaking like a bird whenever they're nervous.

I'm cool with tieflings tending toward evil, the typical teifling giving into their lower-planar taint, making the heroic tiefling all the more remarkable and distinct.

I'm also cool with darkly charismatic silver-tongued deceivers who are held in terrified-but-interested awe by people who mistrust their questionable heritage. And with generally-Unaligned tieflings who are the victims of pure societal exclusion.

They all fit under that umbrella of "orphans of the planes."

I'm also cool with pulpy evil magic devil-people with a lost empire, I just don't recognize that narrative as the particular tiefling narrative I'm fond of. Those creatures are not the cultureless outcasts with vague and indecipherable ancestry that get abandoned at birth in the nearest alleyway. It's a different story. Not really worse, just different, not what I'm looking for when I'm looking to play a tiefling.

 

[variant]

I am curious if they will have tiefling subraces or not. We can't judge from the page count since it's the last race on the list. Would they group non-lower planes planetouched under the tiefling name? I could see them do it.

I am disappointed the Eldarin didn't return in some form.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Did you miss where I used the word "historical"?

No I didn't. I just don't see it as being relevant at all. They were Humans who have been altered somewhere in their ancestry by something unpleasant. Which is exactly the way it works in Planescape unless you're heading into seriously dark territory and imposing a One Drop Rule against Tieflings. And for that matter that can work either way.

Are you responsible for the sins of your ancestors?

And then under the Role-Playing section: "So what if somewhere in your family's distant past one of them was a fiend or other such being?"

And so what if in the distant past one of your ancestors had a connection to Bael Turath? It's exactly the same. Especially given that I never got the impression that Turathi lords were faithful. "My great great grandmother was my great great grandfather's chambermaid, thrown out when she got pregnant."

You *know* a Turathi tiefling's ancestors bartered for power with the D&D version of Satan.

And I know about one person in two hundred is descended from Genghis Khan. Not a nice person. For that matter, I'm descended from William the Bastard by way of John of Gaunt. I've been to Hastings. I've been to a number of the battlefields in the Wars of the Roses. This is an issue because...?

but because of their explicit lack of culture and outcast nature, that really doesn't matter anymore to a PS tiefling PC -- whatever barter happened left no real lasting effects aside from their existence.

It doesn't matter to one in the Nentir Vale either unless you want it to.

I'm cool with low Charisma tieflings who got the short end of the charismatic evil stick and have trouble with confidence and persuasion and attracting followers and the like -- a tiefling whose sulfurous odor leads to weak self-confidence, whose flash of red in their eyes was an embarrassment, whose Vrok ancestry left them sqwaking like a bird whenever they're nervous.

So am I. But this is a different archetype from the default Tieflings in either Planescape or 4E. It is, however, the default archetype in 3.X. Because things descended from evil look ugly.

I'm also cool with pulpy evil magic devil-people with a lost empire, I just don't recognize that narrative as the particular tiefling narrative I'm fond of. Those creatures are not the cultureless outcasts with vague and indecipherable ancestry that get abandoned at birth in the nearest alleyway. It's a different story. Not really worse, just different, not what I'm looking for when I'm looking to play a tiefling.

Indeed. It sounds as if when you want to play a Tiefling you want a vanilla, off the shelf half-orc narrative. Which I'm fine with. The half-orc exists and covers the ugly looking people who got abandoned and left in the nearest alleyway. For that matter so does the half-elf if you want to be a bit prettier and more flexible.

For that matter a member of any race that's outside the norm can be discarded the way you indicate. Or any member of any normal race. In fact "We're a race of cultureless outcasts" - is it me or is there a paradox there?

But 3.X threw away the darkly charming part of the Tiefling narrative. Turning its back on what made Tieflings actually distinctive from the basic PHB experiences. Apparently that didn't matter to you.

 

[I'm A Banana]

No I didn't. I just don't see it as being relevant at all. They were Humans who have been altered somewhere in their ancestry by something unpleasant. Which is exactly the way it works in Planescape unless you're heading into seriously dark territory and imposing a One Drop Rule against Tieflings. And for that matter that can work either way.

Are you responsible for the sins of your ancestors?

And so what if in the distant past one of your ancestors had a connection to Bael Turath? It's exactly the same. Especially given that I never got the impression that Turathi lords were faithful. "My great great grandmother was my great great grandfather's chambermaid, thrown out when she got pregnant."

The Turathi tiefling is explicit in what unpleasant thing happened in its ancestry. From the Compendium:

They are descended from human nobles who bargained with dark powers, and whose empire once subjugated half the world. But the empire was cast down into ruin, and tieflings were left to make their own way in a world that often fears and resents them.

Hundreds of years ago, the leaders of the human empire of Bael Turath made pacts with devils to solidify their hold over its enormous territory. Those humans became the first tieflings, and they governed their empire in the name of their infernal masters. In time, Bael Turath came into conflict with Arkhosia, the ancient empire of the dragonborn, and decades of warfare left both empires in ruins. Bael Turath’s grand capital was thrown down in ruin.

Following the collapse of their empire, the tieflings were scattered. Bearing the infernal visage that was the mark of their pact with the forces of darkness, they found a cold and sometimes deadly welcome in the humanoid societies to which they fled. Once a powerful people with a strong nobility, the tieflings were reduced to little more than vagabonds. Their population dwindled, and for many decades, the survivors of Bael Turath were in danger of being wiped out and forgotten.

Over time, however, the last of the great Turathi nobles began to reclaim their place in the world. Cautiously earning the trust of other peoples, the descendants of those nobles began to spread into human communities that were willing to allow them to live in peace, and the tiefling race was reborn. In the present age, tieflings are less common than many other races, but their numbers grow stronger with each generation.

The central question with that might very well be "Are you responsible for the sins of your ancestors?"

The central question with the PS tiefling isn't that. How you became what you are isn't explicit, because the PS tiefling isn't about ancestors or sin. You clearly are NOT responsible for those sins, because you aren't even conscious of what those sins were or if they were even sins to begin with or if they were who committed them or for what reason. Doesn't matter. Instead, the question is less about setting information and Proper Noun Places, and more about your place in society now. "How do you survive in a world where people are hostile do you because of what you are?"

And I know about one person in two hundred is descended from Genghis Khan. Not a nice person. For that matter, I'm descended from William the Bastard by way of John of Gaunt. I've been to Hastings. I've been to a number of the battlefields in the Wars of the Roses. This is an issue because...?

It's just a different narrative. So, not "exactly the same." Wolverine is a mutant in a world hostile to mutants, his heritage and ancestry and who his great-grandfather is isn't really a big part of the story, but how he copes with that world is. It wouldn't be the same story if instead we talked a lot about the genetic lineage that produced him.

It doesn't matter to one in the Nentir Vale either unless you want it to.

I'm inclined to believe that the designers aren't going to waste 250 words in their tightly-packed books for things they think shouldn't really matter. The story they're telling is Akrhosia and Bael Turath and dragonborn and collapse and rebirth and history and lineage. That's not the same story as the PS tiefling's story. Hell, in some ways, it's almost counter -- "orphans of the planes" and the ambiguity over what might be the cause of the tieflings' nature imply that they don't really know WHAT gave rise to them, they don't have a history, they're creatures without much world context. That has a pretty significant effect on how one RPs a character.

Indeed. It sounds as if when you want to play a Tiefling you want a vanilla, off the shelf half-orc narrative. Which I'm fine with. The half-orc exists and covers the ugly looking people who got abandoned and left in the nearest alleyway. For that matter so does the half-elf if you want to be a bit prettier and more flexible.

It'd be more precise to say that I like the original tiefling narrative of being the orphans of the planes. Among the things I like about it is that it resonates with PS themes that I'm fond of (infinte shades of grey because you are literally the spawn of some version of hell but aren't necessarily evil; atypical fantasy because you are marked in the urban centers that centralize the setting; redefining reality because you get to define your own identity and change the biases of society as you gain levels).

The changed tiefling narrative just isn't that, so it's not what I'm looking for.

For that matter a member of any race that's outside the norm can be discarded the way you indicate. Or any member of any normal race. In fact "We're a race of cultureless outcasts" - is it me or is there a paradox there?

Why would there be? The race in PS isn't cohesive or connected by shared history or culture or experience or even abilities, necessarily. It's a term of convenience applied to a group of creatures that share broad traits (that is, being physical manifestations of weird lower-planar aspects). You aren't born into a family of tieflings with volumes of Tiefling History on the shelves, you're just told that your weird little horns make you part of this hated group, so you need to leave now.

And sure, lots of races might fill the "dark lonely outcast antihero" character niche. Drow in FR are a big one. Half-orcs are a classic. Tieflings are the PS take on that.

But 3.X threw away the darkly charming part of the Tiefling narrative. Turning its back on what made Tieflings actually distinctive from the basic PHB experiences. Apparently that didn't matter to you.

I didn't find "darkly charming" to be a central part of the narrative. It didn't change the essential story, so I didn't mind it. Whether they're charming or not doesn't change the core story of the race as a people of outcasts and societal rejects. The Bael Turath story does change that, and while it's a fine story, it's not the story I'm really looking for when I want to play a tiefling.

 

[Lwaxy]

Meh.
THonestly, I can't even remember anyone playing a female dwarf character.

It's what I play most and in some groups where the GM said only one per race and gender we had to fight over it.

I love playing dwarfs in general because they are grumpy, and females are even more fun because I get to be grumpy in a female way hehe