D&D 4E Is there a "Cliffs Notes" summary of the entire 4E experience?

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Ok, why would they stop H4ting a game they H4te?
I asserted that one of the reason hold-outs fulminated into full-scale h4ters and actively edition-warred was the ongoing support their favored edition enjoyed via the OGL. While I'm sure /some/, perhaps a trivial minority, would've come around if they hadn't had that kind of re-enforcement, the contribution of the OGL to the 'perfect storm' wasn't preventing hypothetical late-adoption, but fueling the edition war, and enabling the publication of Pathfinder (or something like it, if Paizo hadn't gone there). Without it, many hold-outs likely would have kept hating 4e, but they wouldn't have been so engaged and energized as to do so as loudly, publicly, maliciously, and dishonestly as in the edition war, they'd just be grousing about it amongst themselves now and then while mostly just playing 3.5 in their own insular groups. Doubtless, a few of them, starved for new material, might've acquired some 4e stuff, finally given it a chance, and relented when they realized it was actually quite good, but there's no telling if that was ever a major factor in the success of a given edition, since it would've happened late in the cycle when the best sales were long past, and might result in nothing more than the late-adopters acquiring books second-hand or long in inventory that'd have no meaningful impact on perceived sales.

Ultimately, the 'failure' of 4e had nothing to do with it's non-adoption by hold-outs. That happens to every edition. It had to do with the bar for success being set unrealistically high, and the novel means intended to make up the vast gulf between that goal and the past performance of the entire industry, being scuttled by a human tragedy. The OGL third of the perfect storm merely allowed Pathfinder to exist, so it could be there to step into the vacuum left behind by the implosion of the line with Essentials.

The content of the games involved is irrelevant.
 

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Nagol

Unimportant
I asserted that one of the reason hold-outs fulminated into full-scale h4ters and actively edition-warred was the ongoing support their favored edition enjoyed via the OGL. While I'm sure /some/, perhaps a trivial minority, would've come around if they hadn't had that kind of re-enforcement, the contribution of the OGL to the 'perfect storm' wasn't preventing hypothetical late-adoption, but fueling the edition war, and enabling the publication of Pathfinder (or something like it, if Paizo hadn't gone there). Without it, many hold-outs likely would have kept hating 4e, but they wouldn't have been so engaged and energized as to do so as loudly, publicly, maliciously, and dishonestly as in the edition war, they'd just be grousing about it amongst themselves now and then while mostly just playing 3.5 in their own insular groups. Doubtless, a few of them, starved for new material, might've acquired some 4e stuff, finally given it a chance, and relented when they realized it was actually quite good, but there's no telling if that was ever a major factor in the success of a given edition, since it would've happened late in the cycle when the best sales were long past, and might result in nothing more than the late-adopters acquiring books second-hand or long in inventory that'd have no meaningful impact on perceived sales.

Ultimately, the 'failure' of 4e had nothing to do with it's non-adoption by hold-outs. That happens to every edition. It had to do with the bar for success being set unrealistically high, and the novel means intended to make up the vast gulf between that goal and the past performance of the entire industry, being scuttled by a human tragedy. The OGL third of the perfect storm merely allowed Pathfinder to exist, so it could be there to step into the vacuum left behind by the implosion of the line with Essentials.

The content of the games involved is irrelevant.

That premise doesn't match the other major edition war I saw -- oWoD vs. nWoD. There was no OGL or other mechanism to keep oWoD active and boy did it get vitriolic.
 

That premise doesn't match the other major edition war I saw -- oWoD vs. nWoD. There was no OGL or other mechanism to keep oWoD active and boy did it get vitriolic.

That one only calmed down when White Wolf threw up their hands and started producing new oWoD stuff.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
You're attempting to move the goalposts here. Not only are you suggesting that the self-titled "martial" abilities aren't, well, martial at all, but that now one's emotions and state of mind are somehow held in discrete reserves, and are necessary to performing a physical action. That doesn't solve the underlying problem, it just moves it to another area.
What goalposts? Martial powers in 4e are presented as associative mechanics, with daily and encounter powers (mechanics) that are explained as exhausting 'deep reserves' (in-game reason).

You are trying to disprove that.

In doing so, you decided to add 'physical' to deep reserves in an attempt to invoke a realism argument that actually worked against you.

Yes, you can. Unless you're saying that there's something inherently different on a fundamental level regarding how things like "swing a sword" work, then this excuse doesn't have any appreciable level of being reasonable. You're saying that the nature of killing a kobold will be so different from any particular physical action in the real world that it operates by fundamentally different rules regarding the physical nature of the task. That's not only unintuitive, it's unbelievable.
I didn't say killing /a/ kobold, but a number of them in six seconds flat. Really, in one 'action' which is less than six seconds. You could, say, in a turn, open a door, move 30' to w/in 15' of six kobolds, draw them to you with a cunning trick, and kill all six of them, all in six seconds. Is that comparable to anything IRL? No. Is it comparable to something Inigo Montoya did in Princess Bride? You betchya.

Yes, what heroes can do in a fantasy story is radically different from what real people can 'reasonably' do.




On the contrary; not only is my invocation (which is the book's invocation) of real-life physical abilities valid (and it really is), it flat-out supports my assertion, while denying yours.
Your assertion is that 'deep reserves' IRL must necessarily be generic such that exhausting the ability to perform one exceptional mundane task so that you can't do it again necessarily exhausts the ability to perform any and all other exceptional mundane feats, and, if it doesn't, then the original task /must/ be repeatable.

Everyday experience disproves your assertion, since it's possible to be to fatigued to continue with one - even ordinary, mundane - task to continue doing it efficiently, while still being able to engage in a different one.

In pursuit of that, it limits character options to a degree that impacts the game-world to a degree that the characters are aware of, without providing an in-game rationale for why that's so. Hence the dissociation - trying to force people to play to a "genre convention" impedes on their ability to attempt anything.
You can't model a genre without somehow modeling it's genre conventions. It's certainly /easy/ to model genre conventions through a 'plot point' sort of mechanic where players are given 'author' or 'director' stance agency, and doing so is pretty likely to result in a very good, but definitionally 'dissociative' mechanic.

Making that 'associative,' means positing a world where the realities of the world result in genre conventions happening as if they were some sort of emergent property. Taken to extremes, this gets you a Terry Pratchet series.

Taken to less extremes, it gets you things like AEDU, with associative explanations for the EDU parts, by Source.



It's also far less valid and consistence than "generic" reserves (whatever those are, as you haven't defined them yet).
Again, they're your invention. You claim that the full range of things that can be done by martial characters must necessarily, always, be enabled by 'reserves' that could be used for any of those things, regardless of relative power (level) or nature of the exploit.



We have been through this - I've already explained that Vancian casting is not dissociative because magic is not dissociative, whereas physical abilities with limitations that have nothing to do with how physical actions intuitively work are dissociative. Ergo, my definition of dissociative can refer to limits.



You're actually seeing the reflection of one of your own problems. Martial powers presented as abilities in heroic fantasy settings need to have an in-game explanation greater than "because genre."
Why is there magic in D&D? "Because genre." Because genre is an acceptable reason for eschewing undue realism.


You presume that somehow physical fatigue is discrete to each physical action that you perform - which is a huge break from the most basic of agreements as to how reality itself works
Yet again, martial is not limited to the purely-physical. And, there is no huge break here. You can reach a point of exhaustion and diminishing ability in one activity, while still being able to perform well in another. That's reality.

Reality isn't relevant to fantasy, but even if it were, it doesn't come down on your side.

It's also incredibly disingenuous of you to suggest that a power that's clearly labeled "advice" somehow relates to that ability at all, since it's clearly associating itself with something else (though if that's a limited-use power, I look forward to your explanation as to why a ranger can't give advice to someone more than once a day).
Per encounter. They're both encounter utilities. I would assume that Crucial Advice, which interrupts an ally's failed skill check and allows him to succeed - require a remarkable level of focus and decisiveness that can't easily be repeated right away. That could fall under 'deep reserves,' which, afterall, is a fairly broad idea. And, you can clearly see how that wouldn't stop him from some physical exertion later.

That's a very clear example of a martial exploit being more than the all-physical strawman you are basing your arguments on.


Suggesting that "balance" has anything to do with enforcing genre conventions, of course, is largely laughable, considering that the definition of "balance" itself is so mutable.
Games need to be balanced. Games that emulate a genre need to enforce the genre's conventions. Sometimes those are at oods and need to be resolved.

I like to use a consistent definition of balance: A game is balanced when it maximizes meaningful, viable choices. Note that this means a game can be imbalanced by a single obvious-best (often called 'broke' or 'overpowered') choice, but that a few non-viable or meaningless choices only degrade balance a little.

Hey, since I promptly defined a term you seemed to think was being used fluidly, you could finally do me the courtesy of defining your version of 'dissociated mechanics.' Preferably in a source-neutral way (though I understand that may not be possible, given your personal prejudices).



Regardless of the definition used, you can't claim that martial powers are presented as being wholly natural abilities, and then discard that definition whenever it's convenient and with no further examination simply by invoking the term "preternatural."
You could substitute 'extraordinary' (a term used the same way in d20), or super-human, if you like. Preternatural's a perfectly good word, though. Martial abilities in fantasy are often super-human, extraordinary, incredible or any of a variety of adjectives that describe something that is both outside the blandly mundane, but not actually supernatural.

Really, in a fantasy setting, powers that would be supernatural in any other context could be wholly 'natural.' The power of primal characters in 4e, for instance, comes entirely from the natural world (unlike Divine powers that come to some degree from the Gods in the Astral Sea, or Arcane powers, the nature of which is left entirely undefined).

If something is a power beyond what mundane, real-world forces can achieve, then it's non-natural by definition, and can play by its own rules. But you're trying to say it's both. That doesn't work, no matter how you try to slice it.
If you want to consider extraordinary abilities as somehow non-natural, and that helps you accept that the mechanics used to model them are associative, by all means do so.

But, applying the standard of "mundane, real-world forces" to a fantasy world is innately invalid. The world in which D&D characters exist is fantastic, not mundane, and imagined, not real.

Really, at bottom, your objection to the way in which limited-use martial abilities are associated is wholly based on a completely invalid appeal to realism.

You might as well be arguing against the inclusion of dragons, elves and wizards.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
That premise doesn't match the other major edition war I saw -- oWoD vs. nWoD. There was no OGL or other mechanism to keep oWoD active and boy did it get vitriolic.
IMX, oWoD just sort of slipped away until a recent 20-year anniversary. Really, Storyteller, in general, did. Guess I wasn't participating in the right community to see it.
 

IMX, oWoD just sort of slipped away until a recent 20-year anniversary. Really, Storyteller, in general, did. Guess I wasn't participating in the right community to see it.

Be glad. The fighting nearly killed the entire WoD game.

And right now, nWoD is split between post-God Machine and pre-God Machine players. And they're fighting. About the only people perfectly happy right now are the oWoD people.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Be glad. The fighting nearly killed the entire WoD game.

And right now, nWoD is split between post-God Machine and pre-God Machine players. And they're fighting. About the only people perfectly happy right now are the oWoD people.
People are fighting over pre and post-God Machine? Where at? <stretches rhetorical muscles>

Personally, I've never been interested in playing Vampire, either oWoD or nWoD. Just not my type of game. Right up until Strix Chronicles, which I thought was absolutely amazing.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
What goalposts? Martial powers in 4e are presented as associative mechanics, with daily and encounter powers (mechanics) that are explained as exhausting 'deep reserves' (in-game reason).

You are trying to disprove that.

Incorrect. Martial powers in 4E are presented as dissociated mechanics, because their encounter and daily powers are explained as "deep reserves," without that explaining how their usage translates into an in-character understanding, due to the fact that these are implicitly presented as physical reserves, and that's not how exhausting physical reservoirs of effort function.

You are attempting to disprove that. That's the debate we're having here.

Tony Vargas said:
In doing so, you decided to add 'physical' to deep reserves in an attempt to invoke a realism argument that actually worked against you.

On the contrary, you're the one who's decided that "deep reserves" are not physical, in an attempt to get away from the limitations of realism, which has necessarily undercut your argument (despite my telling you repeatedly that if you want to just say that they're some sort of non-natural power, that solves the entire problem).

Tony Vargas said:
I didn't say killing /a/ kobold, but a number of them in six seconds flat. Really, in one 'action' which is less than six seconds. You could, say, in a turn, open a door, move 30' to w/in 15' of six kobolds, draw them to you with a cunning trick, and kill all six of them, all in six seconds. Is that comparable to anything IRL? No. Is it comparable to something Inigo Montoya did in Princess Bride? You betchya.

The distinction you're making doesn't change anything. You're still presenting that as presenting a fundamental change to how physical effort works, which is not the case.

Tony Vargas said:
Yes, what heroes can do in a fantasy story is radically different from what real people can 'reasonably' do.

That doesn't undercut the need for associating what's happening when you have metagame restrictions that have measurable impacts from an in-character standpoint.

Tony Vargas said:
Your assertion is that 'deep reserves' IRL must necessarily be generic such that exhausting the ability to perform one exceptional mundane task so that you can't do it again necessarily exhausts the ability to perform any and all other exceptional mundane feats, and, if it doesn't, then the original task /must/ be repeatable.

It's more correct to say that your assertion is that "deep reserves" aren't "generic" in terms of them being able to be discrete wells of effort that exhaust you only with regards to one particular martial stunt.

Tony Vargas said:
Everyday experience disproves your assertion, since it's possible to be to fatigued to continue with one - even ordinary, mundane - task to continue doing it efficiently, while still being able to engage in a different one.

On the contrary, everyday experience proves that such reserves are generic, which is why you can't run a marathon without it impeding your ability to then play a basketball game.

Tony Vargas said:
You can't model a genre without somehow modeling it's genre conventions. It's certainly /easy/ to model genre conventions through a 'plot point' sort of mechanic where players are given 'author' or 'director' stance agency, and doing so is pretty likely to result in a very good, but definitionally 'dissociative' mechanic.

This is demonstrably untrue. You can easily model a genre without having the metagame mechanics model its conventions - so long as the players choose to keep to those conventions, the genre model is unbroken. The problem comes when you have metagame restrictions that try to force them to remain within such conventions, at which point you're likely dissociating to abrogate the character's freedom of agency.

Tony Vargas said:
Making that 'associative,' means positing a world where the realities of the world result in genre conventions happening as if they were some sort of emergent property. Taken to extremes, this gets you a Terry Pratchet series.

Taken to less extremes, it gets you things like AEDU, with associative explanations for the EDU parts, by Source.

Hence why you'll get more freedom by associating your mechanics without worrying about enforcing genre mechanics, and instead leaving the narrative tone of the game up to the people actually playing it, rather than hard-coding that into the rules.

Tony Vargas said:
Again, they're your invention. You claim that the full range of things that can be done by martial characters must necessarily, always, be enabled by 'reserves' that could be used for any of those things, regardless of relative power (level) or nature of the exploit.

Again, this is your misstatement of the issue. If you're going to claim that "deep reserves" are purely physical in nature, then they need to actually model what they claim to be representing. Saying they're one thing and then having them work like something else creates a dissociation. If you don't want them to be a natural ability, then just say so.

Tony Vargas said:
Why is there magic in D&D? "Because genre." Because genre is an acceptable reason for eschewing undue realism.

This distorts the issue. The question isn't "why is there magic in D&D," but rather "how does magic function in D&D" and the answer is "via associated mechanics." If the rules that enforce "genre conventions" can't come up with the same answer, then they're going to likely impinge on what the player characters can attempt.

Tony Vargas said:
Yet again, martial is not limited to the purely-physical. And, there is no huge break here. You can reach a point of exhaustion and diminishing ability in one activity, while still being able to perform well in another. That's reality.

When you become physically exhausted, it affects your physical performance in other areas. Not that you seem to think that matters, since you keep claiming that "deep reserves" aren't a natural power source...except when you're claiming that they're a natural power source.

Tony Vargas said:
Reality isn't relevant to fantasy, but even if it were, it doesn't come down on your side.

Reality is relevant to fantasy, since anything not explicitly stated as being apart from it is presumed to be in play. That's why it does indeed come down on my side here.

Tony Vargas said:
Per encounter. They're both encounter utilities. I would assume that Crucial Advice, which interrupts an ally's failed skill check and allows him to succeed - require a remarkable level of focus and decisiveness that can't easily be repeated right away. That could fall under 'deep reserves,' which, afterall, is a fairly broad idea. And, you can clearly see how that wouldn't stop him from some physical exertion later.

That's a very clear example of a martial exploit being more than the all-physical strawman you are basing your arguments on.

Ironically, this reveals that it's your own argument that's the strawman, and nothing more. That's because you're actually positing that a ranger's telling someone else "don't wipe with that leaf, it's poison ivy" will interfere with his telling someone else a minute or so later "don't moon the cheetahs, that upsets them."

The idea that this is somehow a limited resource because giving advice on woodland knowledge is a "deep reserve" shows where your argument fails incredibly badly.

Tony Vargas said:
Games need to be balanced. Games that emulate a genre need to enforce the genre's conventions. Sometimes those are at oods and need to be resolved.

Balance is something that I believe happens at the game table, rather than in the books, and usually across the course of an adventure (if not the entire campaign) rather than in each encounter. Games that want to emulate a genre can already do that by having the players act in ways that emulate the genre, without being forced to do so via dissociated mechanics. Any clash between them should be resolved via what the player wants his character to do, rather than what the game is forcing them to do.

Tony Vargas said:
I like to use a consistent definition of balance: A game is balanced when it maximizes meaningful, viable choices. Note that this means a game can be imbalanced by a single obvious-best (often called 'broke' or 'overpowered') choice, but that a few non-viable or meaningless choices only degrade balance a little.

Leaving aside the undefined variable of what constitutes "maximized," "meaningful," and "viable" this is an okay definition, but requires the acknowledgment that any of the aforementioned terms are going to be largely situational.

Tony Vargas said:
Hey, since I promptly defined a term you seemed to think was being used fluidly, you could finally do me the courtesy of defining your version of 'dissociated mechanics.' Preferably in a source-neutral way (though I understand that may not be possible, given your personal prejudices).

This is laughable, since its your personal prejudices that have apparently literally blinded you to all of the times I've defined "dissociated mechanics" over the course of this thread. Maybe you could go back and actually read what I've written?

Tony vargas said:
You could substitute 'extraordinary' (a term used the same way in d20), or super-human, if you like. Preternatural's a perfectly good word, though. Martial abilities in fantasy are often super-human, extraordinary, incredible or any of a variety of adjectives that describe something that is both outside the blandly mundane, but not actually supernatural.

You seem to be hung-up on what the term "supernatural" means. I'm trying to use that to encapsulate any power that's clearly not something that can happen in the natural world. A monk having the "extraordinary" ability to speak any language fluently, even ones they've never heard before, is still clearly supernatural in the regard of it being "non-natural" (that that's different than the game-mechanics listing for "supernatural abilities" is a semantic difference). It's still clearly some sort of unnatural ability - just one that doesn't interact with "magic" per se.

Tony Vargas said:
Really, in a fantasy setting, powers that would be supernatural in any other context could be wholly 'natural.' The power of primal characters in 4e, for instance, comes entirely from the natural world (unlike Divine powers that come to some degree from the Gods in the Astral Sea, or Arcane powers, the nature of which is left entirely undefined).

I think I can see what your problem is here - you're bringing specific definitions in regarding the nature of what's "natural" and what's not. I've said many times that if you want to define martial powers as "unnatural" abilities - albeit ones that don't interact with "magic" spells and powers - then the problem largely goes away.

Tony Vargas said:
If you want to consider extraordinary abilities as somehow non-natural, and that helps you accept that the mechanics used to model them are associative, by all means do so.

That does seem to be what you're saying they are.

Tony vargas said:
But, applying the standard of "mundane, real-world forces" to a fantasy world is innately invalid. The world in which D&D characters exist is fantastic, not mundane, and imagined, not real.

It's entirely valid unto itself, since as mentioned above, the nature of a fantasy game is that it sits atop the presumptions that anything it doesn't redefine, and that has a real-world analogue, will function as its real-world analogue does. You're saying to change the definition of martial abilities so that they're redefined as unnatural powers that don't interfere with magic, and as I've told you many times, that's a perfectly acceptable redefinition.

Tony Vargas said:
Really, at bottom, your objection to the way in which limited-use martial abilities are associated is wholly based on a completely invalid appeal to realism.

Maybe someday you'll understand why that appeal is entirely valid, even if you've sidestepped it by saying "these natural powers aren't really natural powers."

Tony Vargas said:
You might as well be arguing against the inclusion of dragons, elves and wizards.[/i]

So you think that dragons, elves, and wizards have real-world analogues that they can be compared to? You might want to see someone about that.
 

People are fighting over pre and post-God Machine? Where at? <stretches rhetorical muscles>

Personally, I've never been interested in playing Vampire, either oWoD or nWoD. Just not my type of game. Right up until Strix Chronicles, which I thought was absolutely amazing.

Check out the forums for Onyx Path (the people currently contracted to produce WoD books). It's mostly settled now, but it comes up.
 

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