D&D 5E BBEGs and Counterspells

Dausuul

Legend
(Man, I seem to be starting a lot of threads lately...)

So, after heinously abusing a hapless NPC spellcaster last week with counterspell, I'm putting on my DM hat and trying to figure out how a spellcasting villain should deal with it. Given the relatively low DC (10 + spell level) to counter a spell from a higher level slot, and the fact that the countering caster only has to burn a reaction to negate the villain's action, it's a significant challenge. However, I'm checking my initial impulse to just house-rule counterspell. I'd rather explore what tactics can be deployed against it. I really like the idea that you can have genuine magical duels in 5E, rather than just awarding the fight to whoever wins initiative.

The first thing that comes to mind, of course, is to pack counterspells of your own; you can respond to counterspell with another counterspell, like two blue decks going at each other in Magic: The Gathering. This works great if it's one PC caster versus one villain caster (and if the villain belongs to a class that gets access to counterspell!). However, what if you have two PC casters with counterspell? The villain only gets one reaction, so can't counter them both.

Another option is globe of invulnerability. If you can somehow slide that through, your spells become uncounterable since globe blocks anything of 5th level or lower, even when cast in a higher-level slot. However, this requires concentration and a 6th-level spell slot, it stops working if the enemy caster gets within 10 feet of you, and it can itself be countered.

A third possibility is to bluff. Unlike in 3E where you can roll Spellcraft to identify a spell being cast, I don't see any way to know what you're up against in 5E*. That means you have to counterspell blind. A clever enemy mage could trick PCs into wasting their counterspells on cantrips. The problem is that this still leaves you having expended your action, while the enemy only used a reaction. It'll be a few rounds before you can wear down the PC spellcaster's resources this way--rounds during which you are likely to get pounded to death.

A fourth possibility is contingency linked to dimension door. Use the "bluff" option as long as you dare, then speak the trigger word and pop out. Get some heals from your stash of potions, then re-commence combat under more favorable circumstances. This does require the BBEG to be in a friendly environment and have contingency up, but contingency/dimension door is such a good general-purpose escape hatch that it seems entirely reasonable.

What do you think? How would you, as a caster (PC or NPC), deal with a counterspelling foe?

[SIZE=-2]*That's strictly by RAW, of course. Personally, I'd be inclined to allow an Arcana check at DC 10+spell level to identify a spell being cast. But then it's only fair to allow a Sleight of Hand check to fake the other guy out... heh, heh.[/SIZE]
 
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Agamon

Adventurer
I know you'd rather not house rule, but opposing spell checks would be more "spell duel-y" and make the "DC" higher on average.
 

What do the rules actually say about identifying spells as they are cast? I'm inclined to believe that they would lean more toward automatic identification, rather than nobody ever having any idea.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
What do you think? How would you, as a caster (PC or NPC), deal with a counterspelling foe?

What is good for the goose is good for the gander! The PCs have some spare reactions for counterspelling, because there's a group of them? Well, why are you, Mr. NPC Spellcaster, all on your lonesome? Get some minions and lackeys! Make some of them spellcasters. Their purpose in a fight is to protect themselves from damage, and to counterspell anything the PCs try to cast. See how they like them apples!
 

dd.stevenson

Super KY
If it's the bbeg, you'd be in your rights to give it legendary actions.

Otherwise, I would take advantage of bonus action spells to draw out the counterspell. I would definitely not allow the spell to be ID'd before it was cast without a readied action and an Arcana check.
 

GameDoc

Explorer
RAW, it looks to me like you can't counterspell a counterspell, since you have to be actively casting before someone else can use their reaction to counterspell you. Then again it doesn't expressly say you can't counterspell in the middle of casting another spell. Can you take a reaction on your own turn in response to someone's reaction to you, then return to whatever you were doing?

It seems rather bland to just wave a hand at another spellcaster and disrupt his spell automatically. Seems like you should always have to beat a DC like 10 + spell level - level of slot expended to counterspell.
 

Dausuul

Legend
RAW, it looks to me like you can't counterspell a counterspell, since you have to be actively casting before someone else can use their reaction to counterspell you. Then again it doesn't expressly say you can't counterspell in the middle of casting another spell. Can you take a reaction on your own turn in response to someone's reaction to you, then return to whatever you were doing?
The rules explicitly state you can take a reaction on your own turn. I interpret that to mean counterspelling a counterspell is legit. I also think it adds depth to magical combat.

What do the rules actually say about identifying spells as they are cast?
Nothing whatsoever. I guess you could argue it either way. Myself, I feel like Joe "Intelligence Dump Stat" Barbarian shouldn't be able to see a wizard cast a spell and go, "Wizard cast Otiluke's resilient sphere! Joe smash!"
 

GameDoc

Explorer
The rules explicitly state you can take a reaction on your own turn. I interpret that to mean counterspelling a counterspell is legit. I also think it adds depth to magical combat.
.

In that case I agree 100%.

I suspect that once we have item creation rules, my own wizard, sorcerer, and warlock characters might want to have a scroll or wand of counterspell handy.
 

kerbarian

Explorer
Counterspell can only be used against your villain if the characters are within 60 feet, and only if they can see the villain casting (and have line of effect).

So if you can get some distance, that solves the problem. Or if the villain has a non-spell way to become invisible or block line of sight (e.g. a smoke bomb), that also works. For area spells, it could even work to step around a corner to where the villain can't directly see the party and then lob a Fireball that will splash onto them.
 

Using a higher DC (start at 15 instead of 10?) might be good if you use fail forward-y stuff. A failed counterspell might blunt a spell's effect, even if it doesn't knock it down completely.
 

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