D&D 5E Barbarian 'Unarmored Defense'

[Tormyr]

Don't bracers of defense give you an AC of 13 + Dex bonus?

If so, they won't allow for unarmored defense to work as well; you would have to choose (f'rexample) AC 13 + Dex from bracers or AC 10 + Dex + Con (from barbarian unarmored defense).

If I recall correctly, the only requirement is that you are not wearing armor and then it gives a straight +3 bonus. This makes it very useful for monks, barbarians and wizards.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, the unarmoured defense feature does work without magic, it's just mechanically sub-optimal for your concept.

I would say it is sub-optimal, period.

Sure, it works for those ballrooms mentioned upthread, and for nightly ambushes, but for a CON/DEX character, the feature is simply put in the wrong class.

The ability to go unarmored is in itself one I don't see why it needs to cost so much. If a fighter gets AC 16 with or without armor, what's the big deal?

There must be secondary implications on combining this feature with other abilities that bring it into overpowered territory, or why restrict it so much?

 

[jadrax]

Getting +Mod damage on 50% to 33% of your attacks essentially for free by simply taking one level of Fighter (&Co) is something I can't see any character serious about TWF will pass on...

To me it is obvious I need both the feat and the fighting style. What is making you suggest otherwise?

Assuming you have a 16 in your main stat, the Fighting Style gives you +3 damage on one attack per round. It is your bonus attack which without the feat you may not even get as you need to Ready an off-hand weapon (without the feat you only ready one weapon each round).

That is just not worth it for the huge, huge cost of multi-classing into Fighter and putting your feat and attack progression back by a whole level. If you care about your DPS, it is a massive trap choice. You need to get to level 4 in a single class for the feat as fast as possible. You need to get to level 5 in a single martial class for the extra attack as fast as possible.

It is really hard, if not imposable, to start single dip multi-classing in 5e and not really limit your effectiveness. It might work if you get a few levels (at least 4) in Rogue, they actually benefit a lot from Duel Welding finesse weapons due to how Sneak Attack works.

 

[Unadvisedgoose]

I'm not merely trying to create a deadly character.

I am asking about "unarmored defense" and how it suggests dumping strength.

So far, what I am taking away from the thread is that the feature cannot be truly leveraged: you need strength both to level up in Barb, and to multiclass out of Barb.

To give you an easy mental image of my desired end result:

Image a standard barbarian.

Now replace a few bits and bobs, and you're there:
- replace "armor" with "no armor"
- replace "big ass axe" with "twin blades"
- replace "rippling strength" with "unearthly charisma"

Without any significant loss in anything important to a primary melee combatant, such as DPR or AC.

My justifications for each of these three changes:
- dropping armor is mostly an aesthetic choice; I'm not looking to cheat the system or anything, I just don't want to be ripped off. Starting out in the same AC 16-ish range as the armored guy is fine.
- using twin blades should ideally get roughly the same results, and I believe somebody crunched the numbers, and it's only at very high levels that GWF race ahead (the numbers was something like 55 vs 48 or only 15% which is okay)
- the whole idea is based on the observation you don't need Strength to dual wield rapiers, and so I thought it cool to be able to shore up Charisma.

Oh well, we'll see what the splats will bring...

To dual-wield rapiers you would need the Dual Wielder feat. Which gives a +1 AC. And you can still attack with rapiers using strength. Finesse weapons simply give you the option to use Dex, not as a requirement. So let's assume you're using the standard array for your stats.

15 Str. (+1 racial) - 16 [+3 mod]
14 Con. [+2 mod]
13 Dex. (+1 racial) - 14 [+2 mod]
12 Cha. [+1 mod]
10 Wis. [+0]
8 Int. [-1]

And as a variant human you get your dual wielder feat. This means your base AC is still going to be 15, which is only 1 less than the "standard fighter". Plus you have 2 more hit points at lvl one (which is a bigger difference that one might think). Not to mention rages, that also grant extra damage, and resistance to all common types of damage, especially those at lvl one. Now, as you've mentioned, you're missing out on a static +3 to your bonus action attack, but you get an extra +2 to both attack when you're raging.the difference is made up throughout the adventuring day.

I suppose if you could dump STR for DEX, you'd have an extra point of AC. But utilizing rages makes up for any kind of perceived loss in damage or survivability in comparison to a dual wielding fighter of the same level with actual heavy armor on.

 

[CapnZapp]

You can order it anyway you please, starting in Fighter means you gain heavy armour proficiency and a str save. Starting in sorcerer means no heavy armour without dropping a feat on it, and a chr save.

Since Str save prof is said to be useless, and I don't plan on wearing armor (or much of anything, I'm a Drow, remember), this particular choice is easy...

Multiclassing prereqs are covered by Dex 13 and Cha 13.

I guess I can ask my DM to reskin "Dragon Sorcerer" as "Gifted by Lolth" or something.

The scales can be described as spider chitin. The spells are easily explained - all Drow get spells, after all. (It's somewhat like getting the Magic Initiate feat)

AC 13 + Dex is equivalent of AC 10 + (Con 16) + Dex, so this is workable.

Once Dex is 20 and I have the TWF feat I'll look at AC 19 (13 + 1 + 5) which is respectable.

Unlike d20 there is no "loss of BAB" to worry about; proficiency scales with total character level. The cost is one level delay of fighter features, which I would have had to pay anyway (when the plan was Barb's unarmored defense). Thanks.

 

[CapnZapp]

I suppose if you could dump STR for DEX

I already know a strong barbarian is all kinds of awesome. Point of thread is to see if Strength can be dumped in favor of Int, Wis, or as in my case: Cha.

So all you accomplish by "persuading" me to drop my idea and go Str is...

...to convince me "Unarmored Defense" doesn't really work in how it suggests you could dump Strength. You can't.

Dump strength, that is. You can still build a killer Barb. But I already kind of knew that

 

[Unadvisedgoose]

I already know a strong barbarian is all kinds of awesome. Point of thread is to see if Strength can be dumped in favor of Int, Wis, or as in my case: Cha.

So all you accomplish by "persuading" me to drop my idea and go Str is...

...to convince me "Unarmored Defense" doesn't really work in how it suggests you could dump Strength. You can't.

Dump strength, that is. You can still build a killer Barb. But I already kind of knew that

I suppose we disagree on the fact that just because something asks you to use another ability that it would require/suggest you to dump what is clearly designed to be the class's main ability. Not that I can't see where you were trying to go with it though. You'd think they could've simply used STR and CON to calculate, considering monks use the two abilities that are primary for them.

 

[CapnZapp]

Assuming you have a 16 in your main stat, the Fighting Style gives you +3 damage on one attack per round. It is your bonus attack which without the feat you may not even get as you need to Ready an off-hand weapon (without the feat you only ready one weapon each round).

That is just not worth it for the huge, huge cost of multi-classing into Fighter and putting your feat and attack progression back by a whole level. If you care about your DPS, it is a massive trap choice. You need to get to level 4 in a single class for the feat as fast as possible. You need to get to level 5 in a single martial class for the extra attack as fast as possible.

It is really hard, if not imposable, to start single dip multi-classing in 5e and not really limit your effectiveness. It might work if you get a few levels (at least 4) in Rogue, they actually benefit a lot from Duel Welding finesse weapons due to how Sneak Attack works.

Sorry to interrupt, but you do know you're talking about a completely different character than the one I'm talking about, right?

(Since you suggest going Barb 20 you aren't dumping Strength.

And so I gotta ask myself: why then not simply give up on "not armor" too... after all, you don't actually gain anything going without except for some outdated coolness factor. And you can't benefit from magical armor!

And while we're at it, let's switch out those blades for a big ass axe instead - at high levels, it simply is better. And with the axe, I really am better off playing a half-orc instead of an angsty elf with a bad case of sunburn...

You see my point, Jad?)

 

[CapnZapp]

Not that I can't see where you were trying to go with it though. You'd think they could've simply used STR and CON to calculate, considering monks use the two abilities that are primary for them.

Cheers!

Of course, the answer to "why didn't they, then?" is still relevant to the thread, and interesting in its own right.

In other words, in what way(s) would it be OP to allow a melee combatant to simply discard her armor with no loss of AC?

(Assuming said armor is fast and stealthy, of course. I'm not trying to cheese my way out of the drawbacks of Full Plate here)

 

[Unadvisedgoose]

Cheers!

Of course, the answer to "why didn't they, then?" is still relevant to the thread, and interesting in its own right.

In other words, in what way(s) would it be OP to allow a melee combatant to simply discard her armor with no loss of AC?

(Assuming said armor is fast and stealthy, of course. I'm not trying to cheese my way out of the drawbacks of Full Plate here)

I believe it's trying to balance featured against items. An AC 16 fighter received disadvantage on stealth. Anything higher is too expensive for a lvl one player. But later on, you have less magic item enhancement opportunities, because you're not wearing as much. Sure, you can wear a ring or bracers to compensate for the strict +1 bonuses, but what about the cool stuff, like advantage on saving throws against dragon breath, or whatever neat little enchantment could be on a breastplate? But on the other hand, you don't need to even worry about buying better armor as you're able to wear it... Just increase your stats! I think it's a relatively fair trade off, now. Having said that, I don't think using STR to get the +3 use for AC would break anything though.