Maneuverability ratings for aircraft and space craft

[garrowolf]

I am working on a manuevering ratings table for my game and I need some feedback. I am using Star Wars craft and modern craft to provide the base lines. Any suggestions on moving something up or down?



[TABLE="width: 517"] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Rating[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 170"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Categories[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 260"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Examples[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]0[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 170"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Basic[/FONT]
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[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]1[/FONT]
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[/TD] [TD="width: 260"]

[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]2[/FONT]
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[/TD] [TD="width: 260"]

[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]3[/FONT]
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[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]4[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 170"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Trained – Large Ships [/FONT]
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[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]5[/FONT]
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[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]6[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 170"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Shuttles[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 260"]

[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]7[/FONT]
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[/TD] [TD="width: 260"]

[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]8[/FONT]
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[/TD] [TD="width: 260"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Imperial Shuttle [/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]9[/FONT]
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[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]10[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 170"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Proficient – Contra-gravity[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 260"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]B-Wing, Large Helicopter[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]11[/FONT]
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[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]12[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 170"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Helicopters[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 260"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Tie-Bomber, Y-Wing, Transport Helicopter[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]13[/FONT]
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[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]14[/FONT]
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[/TD] [TD="width: 260"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Small Helicopter[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]15[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 170"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Focused – Jet fighters[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 260"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]X-Wing, A-10[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]16[/FONT]
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[/TD] [TD="width: 260"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]F-14[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]17[/FONT]
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[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]18[/FONT]
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[/TD] [TD="width: 260"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Tie-Fighter [/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]19[/FONT]
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[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]20[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 170"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Expert – Advanced Fighters[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 260"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Tie-Interceptor, A-Wing, F-18, F-15[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]21[/FONT]
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[/TD] [TD="width: 260"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]F-16, F-22[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]22[/FONT]
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[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]23[/FONT]
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[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]24[/FONT]
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[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]25[/FONT]
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[Morrus]

I would have thought futuristic fighters would be more maneuverable than contemporary aircraft.

 

[GMMichael]

Did you start with criteria? Things like:

Minimum forward speed: 0%, 50%, 100%

Turn circle: 0 m, 10 m, 100 m

Number of non-forward vectors: 0, 1, 2+

Assign these point values, and the ratings might determine themselves.

 

[BigVanVader]

I would have thought futuristic fighters would be more maneuverable than contemporary aircraft.

I was disagreeing with you in my head until I thought of most starship's ability to hover and stop on a dime.

Maybe for sake of game balance, though, they're not more maneuverable, but they can be taken into the vacuum of space, where maneuverability isn't really as huge a factor?

 

[Morrus]

I was disagreeing with you in my head until I thought of most starship's ability to hover and stop on a dime.

Maybe for sake of game balance, though, they're not more maneuverable, but they can be taken into the vacuum of space, where maneuverability isn't really as huge a factor?

I'm not sure I understand how that makes the game balanced? It might make all spaceships and aircraft exactly equal to each other, but that's a different thing to game balance. I don't think an x-wing needs to be exactly equal to a contemporary jet fighter (or to anything else).

 

[Celebrim]

I would have thought futuristic fighters would be more maneuverable than contemporary aircraft.

You'd think, but Star Wars is particularly problematic as source material because its supposed high tech weaponry is in fact anything but.

For example, the maneuverability and speed displayed by its 'futuristic fighters' was actually staged in such a way to actually match the maneuverability and speed displayed by WW II fighter aircraft in stock footage. X-Wings actually fly at about 300 mph, and behave in space in exactly the way that slow moving aircraft behave in the atmosphere - dipping, turning, and soaring just as you would if you needed aerodynamics to provide lift and were under the effects of gravity. So in fact the maneuverability displayed by X-Wings and Tie fighters is in fact much less than that displayed by directed thrust aircraft like the F-22.

And it's much much less than that displayed by something like the fighter craft in Babylon 5, that use far more realistic space physics and space combat tactics (rotating around and firing backwards and craft that are chasing them while continuing to use inertia to move away from them).

Blasters are no better. The bolts from blasters fly at about 200mph - roughly 1/10th of bullet speed and comparable to arrows for bows. This allows them to be easily seen on the screen, and allows them to be believably parried by light sabers. Even blasts from 'turbo cannons' and the like between starships is more akin to tracer fire from light machine guns than high tech weaponry.

In short, nothing about the Star Wars movies involves a consistently imagined technology.

This is because Star Wars is most assuredly not science fiction. Star Wars is fantasy.

 

[BigVanVader]

I'm not sure I understand how that makes the game balanced? It might make all spaceships and aircraft exactly equal to each other, but that's a different thing to game balance. I don't think an x-wing needs to be exactly equal to a contemporary jet fighter (or to anything else).

Because if this is a game that somehow, inexplicably has both modern earth aircraft and Star Wars ships(maybe this is a Planescape or a Sliders situation), I would hope that there's incentive to use either or. Otherwise, if Timmy can only afford an old Apache helicopter, but Butch can afford a Y-Wing, there's gonna be some sort of disparity at that table.

 

[Morrus]

Because if this is a game that somehow, inexplicably has both modern earth aircraft and Star Wars ships(maybe this is a Planescape or a Sliders situation), I would hope that there's incentive to use either or. Otherwise, if Timmy can only afford an old Apache helicopter, but Butch can afford a Y-Wing, there's gonna be some sort of disparity at that table.

That's not any definition of game balance I'm familiar with. If a D&D character uses a stone dagger while his opponent uses a +5 holy avenger, there's no requirement that the two weapons be equal. If one character has a rusty spoon and another has a Death Star, there's no good reason to make those two items equal. If one guy is flying a Sopwith camel and the other has a modern fighter jet, there's no compulsion to suggest the two things are equal.

Some items are better than other items. Game balance doesn't mean making all items equal to each other. Part of the game is often acquiring the better items.

Game balance does exist, for sure; but that's not what it means. And it's also not the be-all and end-all of game design. In some cases, too much artificially forced "balance" creates an incongruous situation and a bland game.

 

[BigVanVader]

Yeah, but there's a difference of levels between the stone dagger and the Holy Avenger.

And, y'know what, maybe the same difference of levels could be applied to the Star wars ships. Ha ha ha, nevermind.

 

[garrowolf]

Actually the way I was taking it was to have ships that have gravitic tech have more maneuverability than low tech ones out of an atmosphere. Ships like the Starfuries from Babylon 5 can rotate and fire in any direction but they are moving with so much inertia in straight lines that they are still easier to target. Basically atmosphere or gravitic tech would allow a ship to bank and change direct faster even if they are traveling slower.

I know that Star Wars is space fantasy but it is still a good reference point that people have seen. I am working on altering the ships to make them make more sense but I need the base lines.

This is the original chart that I created. By expanding the scale I am getting it to match some other systems better.



[TABLE="width: 756"] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Rating[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Examples[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]0[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Ox Cart, Cog, Small Barge[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]1[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Barge, Caravel, Fishing Boat, Antique Car, Large Naval Vessels[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]2[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Rowboat, Cabin Cruiser Boat, Galleon, Bus, Armored Truck, Tractor Trailer, Forklift, Stage Coach, Faster Naval Vessels[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]3[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Limousine, Armored Truck, Warship, Trireme, Longship, 2 Horse Chariot, Tank [/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]4[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Coastal, Corvette, Sloop, Snowmobile, Compact Car, Jeep, Pickup[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]5[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Sedan, Prop Plane, Large Helicopter, Powerboat, Bomber, RC Car/Drone[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]6[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]ATV, Transport Helicopter, Speed boat, Dune Buggy[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]7[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Sports Car, Police Cruiser, WW2 Fighter, Learjet, Small Helicopter, RC Copter/Drone[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]8[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Dirt Bike, Jet Ski, Hydrofoil[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]9[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Racing Bike, Formula 1 Car, A-10, RC Plane/Drone[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]10[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]F-14, RC Jet/Drone[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]11[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]F-18, F-15[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 42"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]12[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 696"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]F-16, F-22[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]





[TABLE="width: 453"] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Rating[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Star Wars[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]0[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"]

[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]1[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Imperial Star Destroyer, Interdictor Cruiser, Bulk Cruiser[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]2[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Carrack Light Cruiser, Assault Frigate, Mon Calamari Cruiser[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]3[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Imperial Assault Transport, Lancer Frigate, Corellian Corvette[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]4[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Corellian Gunship[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]5[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]B-Wing, Imperial Shuttle[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]6[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Tie Bomber, Y-Wing, Landspeeder [/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]7[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]X-Wing, Fast Landspeeder, Fast Airspeeder [/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]8[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Swoop[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]9[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Speederbike [/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]10[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Tie Fighter[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]11[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Tie Interceptor, A-Wing[/FONT]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 62"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]12[/FONT]
[/TD] [TD="width: 374"] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Aethersprite[/FONT]
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