D&D 5E MM Firesnake up on Christopher Burdett's Blog

[Mistwell]

I also have no sympathy for most monsters in movies

Why do you have no problem at all lacking sympathy for the baby aliens in that clip from Aliens?

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

It's not really something one could provide a quote for or against. At this level, it's a playstyle choice/preference.

In some games/settings, all creatures are born able to choose their morality and right/wrong is determined by the actions and consequences - like IRL.

the quote I responded to said

Are they? I think some are, particularly in the humanoid groups. But I think a LOT of evil monsters are evil from birth. Sometimes it's directly mentioned in the description, sometimes just implied or contained in the history of the monster throughout the editions. But I think unlike our world, in the world of D&D some things are born inherently evil, and this is a basic assumption of the implied setting. Just like those Aliens in the video I posted above.

I'll pull out the important part...

[Sometimes it's directly mentioned in the description, sometimes just implied or contained in the history of the monster throughout the editions./QUOTE]

so that is what I am looking for

 

[Mistwell]

the quote I responded to said



I'll pull out the important part...

[Sometimes it's directly mentioned in the description, sometimes just implied or contained in the history of the monster throughout the editions.

so that is what I am looking for

Yeah I am not going to play that quote game. Some monsters tell you they are inherently evil. Almost all the undead entries say that for instance, and entire supplemental books have gone into quite some lengths explaining it (like Open Grave from 4e). But bottom line, it's right there in the alignment entry and the description of the alignment. You can even detect it as evil. D&D is a much more black and white world than real life. This is something you have no trouble accepting for monster movies like Aliens, so why do you have trouble for fantasy games like D&D? How is it really different?

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

Why do you have no problem at all lacking sympathy for the baby aliens in that clip from Aliens?

well off hand I'll go with I have no connection to the monster, and don't see it as a real thing at all... infact I have nothing to feel about the movie.

In D&D I invest ALOT more time and energy into it

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

Yeah I am not going to play that quote game. Some monsters tell you they are inherently evil. Almost all the undead entries say that for instance, and entire supplemental books have gone into quite some lengths explaining it (like Open Grave from 4e). But bottom line, it's right there in the alignment entry and the description of the alignment. You can even detect it as evil. D&D is a much more black and white world than real life. This is something you have no trouble accepting for monster movies like Aliens, so why do you have trouble for fantasy games like D&D? How is it really different?

ok, so undead are always evil... iless they are deathless, or what ever the elvin lich in FR was...

Now how about dragons.

You say you don't want to play the quote game with me, but I don't know what you mean. You don't have to quote me to answer my many qustions, but I did answer yours... the difference between watching a horror movie (one I don't even really like) and playing a game where I emerge myself in my characters mind set is VERY different level of connections. I would be weirded out if someone told me they spend years fantasing about being ripply too... is that better?

 

[Mistwell]

well off hand I'll go with I have no connection to the monster, and don't see it as a real thing at all... infact I have nothing to feel about the movie.

In D&D I invest ALOT more time and energy into it

I don't see why time and energy investment in the game in general are connected to feelings for a random monster you just encountered in the game. It's not about energy and investment in the game in general any more than your level of sympathy for those aliens is connected to the level of investment and energy you have in movies in general.

I also don't see a fantasy creature I randomly encountered in a game as a "real thing". No matter how much time or energy I invest in it, it's never going to feel like a "real thing" because I am playing a game and it's just a random monster...like from a monster movie.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I don't see why time and energy investment in the game in general are connected to feelings for a random monster you just encountered in the game. It's not about energy and investment in the game in general any more than your level of sympathy for those aliens is connected to the level of investment and energy you have in movies in general.

I also don't see a fantasy creature I randomly encountered in a game as a "real thing". No matter how much time or energy I invest in it, it's never going to feel like a "real thing" because I am playing a game and it's just a random monster...like from a monster movie.

OK, well I fantasies around the table every week, and the type of hero (or anti hero, or villain) I want to be matters... and when I play it heroic, I wont kill something just because it's green, or black... I also feel that writing into the rules it's AOK to do so is scary...

 

[Mistwell]

ok, so undead are always evil... iless they are deathless, or what ever the elvin lich in FR was...

Now how about dragons.

Now you have become a moving target - which is why I said I won't play that quote game because it almost always goes the way you just took it. It's disingenuous to say to someone "The books don't say creatures are inherently evil - prove it" and then when they give you an example you just move to another example and ask for "prove it" again. I'd then reference the Draconomicon from 4e and how it talks about inherant evil from birth, and you'd switch to something else, or a different type of dragon, or a different edition of the game, or whatever new target you'd like. I am not Charlie Brown, I know you're pulling the football away at the last second, and so I am not going to play that game.

You say you don't want to play the quote game with me, but I don't know what you mean.

Now you know.

the difference between watching a horror movie (one I don't even really like) and playing a game where I emerge myself in my characters mind set is VERY different level of connections. I would be weirded out if someone told me they spend years fantasing about being ripply too... is that better?

I definitely immerse myself in movies that I go to see, that is the entire point of a movie and the atmosphere and the large screen, it's the entire point of the enhancements in technology with sound and vision and effects and even seating and audiences. If you're not feeling any immersion effects from movies, I wonder why? Others around you in that movie audience are definitely feeling what you say you're not feeling. Entire departments at colleges are devoted to studying it in fact. Why are you not feeling anything from movies, but you have no trouble feeling something in games? That seems odd to me.

I do not spend years fantasizing about being the character I play in a tabletop role playing game, by the way. When I am playing I try to immerse myself to some extent in the character and the game (to the same extent I immerse myself in other entertainment, like movies), but when I am not playing I am not fantasizing about being the character.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

Now you have become a moving target

I don't think I did that... we were talking about dragons, then I compaired to orcs and humans and elves... then you brought up undead... witch again I said isn't even 100% true. But OK, I give up...

- which is why I said I won't play that quote game because it almost always goes the way you just took it. It's disingenuous to say to someone "The books don't say creatures are inherently evil - prove it" and then when they give you an example you just move to another example and ask for "prove it" again. I am not Charlie Brown, I know you're pulling the football away at the last second, and so I am not going to play that game.

OK, I really don't see that I want to have an honest discussion on the idea of underage monsters and alignment being inborn... how ever you seem to be argueing something else entirely...

I definitely immerse myself in movies that I go to see, that is the entire point of a movie and the atmosphere and the large screen, it's the entire point of the enhancements in technology with sound and vision and effects and even seating and audiences.

I didn't say that I never was immerse in any movie I said Bad sci fi horror films I don't like don't leave the same type of impression on me. I'm sorry if you feel really connected to Alien's... I just don't

If you're not feeling any immersion effects from movies, I wonder why?

I guess because I didn't see it in a theater around people, but on TV late at night and didn't really like it?

Entire departments at colleges are devoted to studying it in fact. Why are you not feeling anything from movies, but you have no trouble feeling something in games? That seems odd to me.

what seems strange to me is that my comment of not feeling anything from 1 movie I don't like means I never did... lets talk Sound of Music, or The Avengers, or even Karate Kid...

I do not spend years fantasizing about being the character I play in a tabletop role playing game, by the way. When I am playing I try to immerse myself to some extent in the character and the game (to the same extent I immerse myself in other entertainment, like movies), but when I am not playing I am not fantasizing about being the character.

I spent 3 years playing a 2e character almost every week for 3-6 hrs... so maybe 120 games, 500 hours...
according to IMD Aliens has a run time of 137mins... so I would have to watch it200+ times to come even close to amount of time invested... except I LIKE D&D and I find that movie BOREING

 

[Savage Wombat]

Are they? I think some are, particularly in the humanoid groups. But I think a LOT of evil monsters are evil from birth. Sometimes it's directly mentioned in the description, sometimes just implied or contained in the history of the monster throughout the editions. But I think unlike our world, in the world of D&D some things are born inherently evil, and this is a basic assumption of the implied setting. Just like those Aliens in the video I posted above.

There are those who consider D&D's use of the "evil from birth" trope as a cheap cop-out, to avoid considering the ramifications of the player's desire to just kill some monsters. I admit to leaning to that desire myself, but I've thought about it. Is the fact that something is evil by nature enough justification to kill it? The salamanders in this example aren't actively preying upon humans for food or brood-stuff, they're just - I don't know, it's not in the description - greedy and cruel?

(My first instinct to reference real-world persona hereby quashed.)

I've seen debates in game fora wherein people declare their intent to never buy a game based on one monster they considered controversial. I would think that making a change that leads to controversy for no particular reason is not the best business decision. It's not like deciding "should we include stats for baby dragons as we have in previous editions" - it's "hey, should we make this monster the baby form of that monster, so that they're connected?"