Scorpio616
First Post
In 5E there is a modest amount of power variation at each level of Challenge Rating, and given that WoTC has screwed up dragon CRs before, I’m wondering if folks feel dragons are appropriately CR’ed.
D&D 5E Are Challenge Ratings of dragons accurate in 5ED&D?
- Thread starter Scorpio616
- Start date
Let's take a look at the young white dragon, CR 6.
Breath weapon does 45 (10d8) damage, level 7 d8 hit die PC class with +1 con mod has 45 hit points (9+6+6+6+6+6+6 =45), sure some characters might have a higher con mod, some might be d10 but some are going to have d6's or have a +0 con mod.
The DC vs the breath weapon is 15, that is pretty high unless you have dex primary and dex save proficiency. So that looks like we have a couple dropped PC's round 1 when the dragon breaths.
Any encounter with the white dragon should probably include mostly icy terrain where the characters might be fighting at disadvantage, and probably are moving in difficult terrain. The dragon can burrow and swim, so if there is a snow bank or ice water pond the dragon will get a surprise round. Hit and run tactics with a place the dragon can hide while burrowed or swimming, pops out when dragon breath recharges, I would put my gold on the young white dragon against a party of 7th level characters. That is supposed to be a medium encounter for four 7th level characters.
Breath weapon does 45 (10d8) damage, level 7 d8 hit die PC class with +1 con mod has 45 hit points (9+6+6+6+6+6+6 =45), sure some characters might have a higher con mod, some might be d10 but some are going to have d6's or have a +0 con mod.
The DC vs the breath weapon is 15, that is pretty high unless you have dex primary and dex save proficiency. So that looks like we have a couple dropped PC's round 1 when the dragon breaths.
Any encounter with the white dragon should probably include mostly icy terrain where the characters might be fighting at disadvantage, and probably are moving in difficult terrain. The dragon can burrow and swim, so if there is a snow bank or ice water pond the dragon will get a surprise round. Hit and run tactics with a place the dragon can hide while burrowed or swimming, pops out when dragon breath recharges, I would put my gold on the young white dragon against a party of 7th level characters. That is supposed to be a medium encounter for four 7th level characters.
Scorpio616
First Post
Yeah, I'd much rather face the drider, even the spell casting variant.
True, but one would hope that adventurers would be somewhat prepared when facing up against a dragon. Items/potions/spells for Cold damage resistance, fear immunity and so on. Spiked snow shoes.
Otherwise, run away!
aramis erak
Legend
A group of 4 PC's should be able to save vs that breath weapon. If they're bundled up, they should be getting advantage vs the breath weapon, and/or resistance to cold damage. It's a con DC15 save, so most adventurers have a +1 or +2 mod. A natural 14+ with advantage is a 231/400 chance, or 57%. 6th level characters should have a minor magic item or two...
And 4 PC's having a difficult encounter is the Default Standard for CR's.
So, they need to kill it before it recharges the breath weapon... Shooting it from range with bows seems a good idea. Preferably not within 30' of each other.
Most PC's are likely to have more than just their HD. The Wizard is likely to be 6HD - but first level is max, so that's 6, +3.5*5=23 HP, assuming that he would have put the 10 in there, not the 8, because low con sucks that much. The Fighter is 10+5*5.5=37.5, plus a +2 from Con 14+ giving an additional 12, for 49.5 HP average, and at least 50% odds on the save without advantage.
Oh, and the rogue? Reaction to uncanny dodge. He's taking half AND gets to save.
If they save, they take it.
And a 6th level wizard has a 3rd level slot... fireball does 8d6 (28 points). His sustained is a 3d4+3 magic missile, averaging 9.
The fighter is shooting twice for a 2d6+1 to 2d6+4 each, and in rounds 1 and 2, shooting 4x (as he can take two attack actions, each getting 2 attacks, during his action surge), for 4d6+4 to 4d6+16 with a Nat 13+ to hit to Nat 8+ to hit AC 17... no advantage, he's averaging 7.2 to 19.5 per round for the first two, and half that sustained. Assuming the rogue goes first, he gets 1 shot with a probable +3 to +4 from dex and 3 from PB, so he's hitting on a nat 10 for 1d6+3 to 1d6+4 with that missile weapon...6.5 to 7.5. He's undoubtedly saved inspiration for round 1, so that's another 10.5 expected from +3d6 for sneak attack.
The Cleric dumps a guiding bolt on it, so the damage is 4d6 (14) plus someone gets advantage to hit. Or a sacred Bolt for a 2d8 (avg 9) save for half.... That party can put an average of about 30-50 points per round on it... about 3-5 rounds... but half of them drop in the second breath weapon... but then it goes to melee... and the rogue gets bonus damage...
mathematically, and logically, it's quite doable. If the cleric goes melee, he can provide advantage against the cold... (Protection from Energy).
MortalPlague
Adventurer
Dragon breath weapons are the only place where they are competitive.
The damage from claws and bite were double what they are now during the latest parts of the playtest. They got nerfed hard on AC, hit points, and damage for the final release. It's to the point that I'm using playtest damage values in my campaign so that dragons are a legitimate threat.
The damage from claws and bite were double what they are now during the latest parts of the playtest. They got nerfed hard on AC, hit points, and damage for the final release. It's to the point that I'm using playtest damage values in my campaign so that dragons are a legitimate threat.
Bundling up to get advantage on saves vs cold damage or resistance? Sorry not in my campaign a nice puffy jacket and some long johns does not help against magic or dragon's breath weapons.
The melee damage on bites and claws can be low, dragons should only use them as a last resort. Flying, moving to areas that advantage the dragon like water, using the dodge action when it doesn't have a breath attack, should be normal procedure. If the dragon does get into melee, by that point the party should be spread out to mitigate the effectiveness of breath weapon attacks, the dragon moves into melee with one and focus fires bite + claw and sometimes switch out the last claw for a grapple attack. That way it can use remaining movement to fly up at half speed dragging the PC into the air away from his allies and next round do all kinds of things but flying further away with dash and dropping the PC is a good choice.
I do agree that the HP is low, and melee damage values the same so use the other capabilities like breath weapons, movement, immunities and such to the best of it's ability.
The melee damage on bites and claws can be low, dragons should only use them as a last resort. Flying, moving to areas that advantage the dragon like water, using the dodge action when it doesn't have a breath attack, should be normal procedure. If the dragon does get into melee, by that point the party should be spread out to mitigate the effectiveness of breath weapon attacks, the dragon moves into melee with one and focus fires bite + claw and sometimes switch out the last claw for a grapple attack. That way it can use remaining movement to fly up at half speed dragging the PC into the air away from his allies and next round do all kinds of things but flying further away with dash and dropping the PC is a good choice.
I do agree that the HP is low, and melee damage values the same so use the other capabilities like breath weapons, movement, immunities and such to the best of it's ability.
practicalm
Adventurer
I'm trying to understand what you mean here. The last playtest packet Black dragon seems weaker than either the Adult or Young Black Dragon. Or are you talking about the closed Alpha test instead of the the open playtest?
[table="width: 500"]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]Last Playtest Bestiary[/td]
[td]Young MM Dragon[/td]
[td]Adult MM Dragon[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]CR[/td]
[td]10[/td]
[td]7[/td]
[td]14[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]AC[/td]
[td]15[/td]
[td]18[/td]
[td]19[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Bite[/td]
[td]+9 2d6+6(13)[/td]
[td]+7 2d10+4(15)[/td]
[td]+11 2d10+6(17)[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Claw[/td]
[td]+9 1d8+6(10)[/td]
[td]+7 2d6+4(11)[/td]
[td]+11 2d6+6(15)[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Tail[/td]
[td]+9 1d8+6(10)[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]+11 2d6+6(15)[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Breath[/td]
[td]DC18 Dex 4d6+4(18)[/td]
[td]DC14 Dex 11d8(49)[/td]
[td]DC18 Dex 12d8(54)[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
