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D&D 5E Behind the design of 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons: Well my impression as least.

After going through the DMG my observation this is the edition for creators, not consumers.

I am a consumer of content, I don't want to be a creator. There's a huge lack of detail that I want (and require) as a time poor DM who doesn't have the time to sit down and create my own diseases, traps, magic items, or spend hours fiddling around with the complicated monster builder/reverse engineering the monsters manual.

I love the edition more than any other, but it's put a lot of burden back into the hands of the DM's, which is both good and bad, depending on where you sit.
 

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"I'm a fighter? Let me put that 18 on charisma and intelligence. I'll rarely need my strength. We want to avoid combat."

"We found a +3 sword and gauntlets of ogre power? I don't really need those. Is there a book or something that lets me use my charisma or intelligence to win encounters? Fighting is not what we do. We're supposed to talk and sneak all time. I don't know why I'm wearing this plate mail."
Perhaps not the best example, as you're picking on the most combat-focused class.

Let's look at the four core class types in 1e and how they relate to the pillars.

Fighters: well, it goes without saying they fight - it's what they do; and theirs is obviously the combat pillar. They can certainly help out with exploration and interaction, but it's probably not their forte.

Thieves: they sneak, scout, infiltrate - theirs is the exploration pillar. They can help out with combat and in the right circumstances can be really good at interaction, but exploring is what they do. Or it should be.

Clerics: here it gets a little more gray. They can be kind of half-decent at all three pillars but don't really excel in any one; though some Clerics can be great at the interaction side.

Wizard types: again gray; but this time it is somewhat up to the player. You can build a combat wizard who blasts things, an interaction wizard who charms things and becomes the party "face", or an exploration wizard who takes on the role of scout and sneak. Spell selection makes all the difference here.

1e never really had a true full-on interaction-based class; it took the 3e Bard to finally give us that, just when it wasn't really needed any more.

It wasn't fun to have creatures run and have to track them in any edition.
Others' opinions may, of course, vary.

Lan-"I never mind if a creature runs away, as I know if I can track it long enough it'll lead me to where it keeps its stuff"-efan
 

Where are the modules where my PC could gain a significant amount of XP by political intrigue, seducing ladies, and finding the farm boy's lost puppy, etc.? Can someone name even one?
The only one I can think of is Beyond the Crystal Cave.

Steading of the Hill Giant Chief is perhaps the quintessential example of "hack and slash will get you killed". You had to be sneaky or die. A frontal assault ruins any chance of success that you might have, unless you are VERY lucky and the DM is extremely soft and generous.
Here is the report of the original team that won that tournament (Dragon 19):

We gained entry through the east side entrance, which turned out to be the kennel. After casting a silence 15’ radius spell, the dire wolves inside were quickly dispatched. We then searched a major portion of the upper level and killed four or five giants in the process, including an old matron whose potions and treasure we took.

We made a brief and fruitless entrance into the lower level only to set off a trap which left six members of our party locked in combat with four insane manticores. The manticores were killed without serious injury to the group, and a passwall spell brought about an escape from the room.

We returned to the upstairs and charmed a hill giant into pointing out which giant at the feast going on in the Great Hall was the chief. We surrounded this room from two sides and sent the charmed giant into the Hall with the order to point out the chief by kissing him on the cheek. This was also to be the signal for our two groups to attack. Two fireballs, a javelin of lightning, a confusion spell, and a good deal of slashing and hacking later, the giants were wiped out to a man and the Steading was aflame. The group, still intact, cut off the hill giant chief's head and quickly left by the front gate. The cleric blocked pursuit by casting a blade barrier across the entrance. We then cast a speak with dead on the head, and subsequent questioning revealed the next step to be taken on our quest.​

I don't think this is a good counter-example to the claim that combat is the pre-eminent mode of conflict resolution in typical D&D play.

Once again you assume that just because combat takes up a larger page count then it is somehow the primary objective to the game. Since combat requires most of the rules then I would expect there to be modules. The other pillars don't require the number crunching that combat rules do
Combat had the most attention in the books because it has the most moving parts when compared to everything else.
This is often asserted, but is not true. Combat doesn't need to have "number crunching" or lots of rules. Over the past few weeks I have run two sessions of Burning Wheel (play report here). In that time there was one combat - a friendly boxing match between a hired swordhand and a beefy sailor - and it was resolved with a single roll of the dice pool on each side. If you don't want combat to be the focus of the game, the easiest way is to not use rules that make it into that.

Most of the conflict in those two sessions was social conflict. One reason that I think combat is the most important means of conflict resolution in D&D play is that only combat tends to produce finality in D&D rules (because of the rule that, once a character reaches 0 hp, that character's player can't declare any more actions for him/her). Unless magic is used (eg Charm Person, Suggestion) it is very hard for players to achieve finality in D&D's social resolution, and equally hard for the GM to defeat them with finality. 4e had finality by the players against the GM and without using magic - via skill challenges - but not vice versa. BW does have finality in social conflict, in both directions, and I think that makes it a better system for running adventures in which conflicts are resolved other than by combat.

I know how the game was played at conventions, general groups, and the like. They fought and took treasure. Parties were made up of very few classes that didn't have to fight and take treasure. Getting around encounters without fighting was not only impractical, but boring.

<snip>

D&D was designed to focus on combat because the most people have the most fun doing combat. Doesn't mean you can't do other things. The design of the game is built for killing and taking things. It is the paradigm of the system.
I agree that the game does make combat the main focus of conflict resolution. It will depend a bit on level and class, however. For instance, a mid-level AD&D party with a clever player of a MU or illusionist, and a flexible GM, might adopt "trick, stealth and loot" tactics with some degree of success.

But this will tend to depend heavily on GM arbitration that is not well-supported by definite mechanics. So experiences are likely to vary widely from table to table.

the non-combat rules far outweigh the combat rules in the 1e DMG, as well as in B/X.
I've been doing a lot of re-reading of my AD&D and B/X books over the past year or so, and I think this claim is contentious. Though it depends a bit on what you mean by "rules".

If, by rules, we mean "action resolution mechanics", then I maintain that these are mostly focused on combat. The exploration rules are very minimal and narrow in focus. There are dungeon rules: for lighting, for detecting invisible creatures, for finding, listening at and opening doors. And there are rules for travel times per distance and chances of getting lost, and tend to emphasise the interaction between terrain, travel time and encounters (which are scary because of the combat that they threaten). There are evasion rules, but these are framed in terms of avoid combat. The exploration rules don't include rules for (say) climbing high peaks, exploring ravines, finding water in a desert, communicating with those who speak unfamiliar languages, charting coastlines (every PC is assumed to be an impeccable mapper), etc - which are just some of the features of real-world exploration that come to mind as more important, very often, than forcing open doors.

The social rules are also fairly minimal. The reaction rules focus on the likelihood of hostility, particularly attack. There are morale rules. And there are loyalty rules, a good chunk of which interact with or replicate elements of the morale rules. In the DMG here is a stated modification to loyalty for brining a retainer back from the dead, but not (for instance) for marrying him/her to a younger sibling.

If we include class abilities under the action resolution rules - which makes sense to me - we get some which are non-combat, like the ranger tracking and thief ability rules, but we also get plenty which are, like the plethora of MU spells for debilitating or destroying enemies. Many magic items, perhaps a majority, are also focused around improving combat capability.

There is also a lack of guidance on how to use non-combat rules (which relates to my finality point above). I suspect I could do more interesting things with the AD&D social rules today than I ever did back when I was playing the game, but that is because I would draw upon approaches and techniques that I have read about in other RPGs. Whereas Gygax's DMG has a rather detailed example of the combat mechanics in use, it has no discussion at all of how the reaction and loyalty rules might be used to resolve (say) a diplomatic negotiation, or an attempt to woo a romantic partner (to allude to two of [MENTION=545]Ridley's Cohort[/MENTION]'s examples). The first AD&D book I know of that even frames these sorts of things as possible focuses of play is Oriental Adventures, but it still gives very little advice on how to actually put the mechanics to work. At best it hints at it, for instance by indicating reaction modifiers based on a character's honour.

But consider such a simple question as "How often does a henchman have to make a loyalty check if an NPC attempts to bribe him/her?" With combat we have clear rules for the ablation of hit points and their recovery (via rest, magic, etc). But if a loyalty check is made, how long must pass before the NPC can make another attempt? Without answer, or at least suggested approaches to answering, such questions, the non-combat conflict resolution rules will not be as robust, in play, as the combat ones.

For the first what? 25 years of D&D, the only way you healed was through magic. Nothing like healing surges or hit dice. And for the first 15 years, clerics didn't even get their first healing spell until they progressed in levels.
Neither of these claims is correct.

AD&D clerics typically had 3 spells at 1st level (1 from level plus 2 from WIS of 14+). This is from 1978 (PHB), so within the first 5 years of the game.

AD&D also had rules for healing damage via non-magical proficiency checks (in the Wilderness Survival Guide, and then in the AD&D 2nd ed PHB). So there was non-magical healing. (And of course there were rules for healing via resting also.)
 

After reading this thread I realised that we are not discussing about combat.
We are discussing if the characters are heroes or not.
And in old DnD they weren't.

In the old days a party was usually a magic-user with 2 hp and 1 spell, a cleric with 4 hp and no spells, and a fighter with 6 hp. And it wasn't just one of each, it was about ten; a party of 30 people with 10 magic-users, 10 clerics, and 10 fighters.
There is no way you would call such a group heroes.
That they became heroes at higher levels is another thing.

So old DnD was about a large group of nobodies striving to survive, becoming a group of wellknowns in the process.
It was not about a small group of budding heroes set on a road to greatness.
The fact is that classical fantasy-themes like "knights in shining armor saving princesses from dragons" didn't became a part of the game until DragonLance and 2E.
 

In the old days a party was usually a magic-user with 2 hp and 1 spell, a cleric with 4 hp and no spells, and a fighter with 6 hp. And it wasn't just one of each, it was about ten; a party of 30 people with 10 magic-users, 10 clerics, and 10 fighters.

There is no way you would call such a group heroes.
That they became heroes at higher levels is another thing.

So old DnD was about a large group of nobodies striving to survive, becoming a group of wellknowns in the process.
It was not about a small group of budding heroes set on a road to greatness.
The fact is that classical fantasy-themes like "knights in shining armor saving princesses from dragons" didn't became a part of the game until DragonLance and 2E.

Just like in DCC and their "funnel" system where your 0 level newbs are intentionally designed to go through the meat grinder to hopefully reach level 1. But yes, they become heroes and legends later if they live long enough.
 

How about encounters in modules where the baddies attack on sight? That good enough for you.

What? Some monsters can be hostile? No way. I suppose that means the blacksmith's apprentice and the serving wench need to be killed on sight, just in case they were considering hostility.

Hey, quick question. What's the name of two farmers in Homlett? What's the name of the priest in the moathouse? All non-combat encounters?

Jeb Eckert and Barnabas Park. The priest is Lareth the Beautiful. The nature of the encounters with these NPCs is up to the players.

Because something can be done, does not mean it was the preferred or encouraged way of playing.

Why we're having an argument about whether D&D was originally combat focused is unbelievable. You're talking up stealth, deception, trickery, and the like, yet not many classes were equipped to handle things in this manner. Even the rogue at early levels had an extremely low percentage chance of accomplishing all of those things. The fighter had almost no chance. The wizard was extremely limited in spell choice and capability. You couldn't be a 1st level bard in the original game. The bard was a dual class option. Very few people focused on charisma or intelligence as a stat unless it was necessary to their class.

If you approach the game from a perspective of anything not forbidden is possible, instead of a perspective of anything not proscribed is forbidden a whole lot of options and possibilities open up. The early editions were designed by wargamers for wargamers who understood how to apply common sense. ANYONE taking reasonable precautions can be stealthy. The thief abilities were a saving throw of sorts to give these characters with special training a last ditch chance to pull off something a regular character could not.

This attempt by you and a few others to paint D&D as other than a combat-focused game is an attempt at an incredulous argument for reasons I can't comprehend. Pulling pages from the DMG for handling social interactions could be easily be countered by all the combat rules, text and magical combat spells that exists in the game. No one is pulling those pages because they exist everywhere. On top of that there were entire books dedicated to nothing but monsters. The designers spent all that time on the Monster Manual's, so you could talk to monsters and avoid them. All those combat statistics for various monsters existing as merely a pointless exercise by game designers that knew that D&D parties would spend more time avoiding monsters than fighting them.

The existence of stats signifies nothing. ZEUS had stats, but strangely no treasure type. Why? The MM had all kinds of creatures. Gold dragons had stats, did heroes go around slaying them? What about good aligned beings from the outer planes?

The MM also had all kinds of men including merchants & traders. Just for slaughtering I suppose.


Then there are modules they wasted their time on like Keep on the Borderlands, Temple of Elemental Evil, and the like where they shouldn't have bothered with all those monster combat encounters rather spending all their time providing rules and methods for ending each encounter by either talking or stealthing, because of course the majority of parties were playing that way. All those combat encounters and defeating the evil threat was just window dressing for players that were supposed to spend the majority of their high stats on charisma and intelligence for resolving these encounters without combat.

There WERE rules for resolving encounters without combat. Reaction rolls were the norm for many encounters. Thinking monsters could be communicated with and deals could be made. Monsters have goals too and staying alive is pretty high up on the priority list for the ones with half a brain. Just because YOU decided that they were all homicidal maniacs with death wishes doesn't mean that the rest of world played that way.

"I'm a fighter? Let me put that 18 on charisma and intelligence. I'll rarely need my strength. We want to avoid combat."

"We found a +3 sword and gauntlets of ogre power? I don't really need those. Is there a book or something that lets me use my charisma or intelligence to win encounters? Fighting is not what we do. We're supposed to talk and sneak all time. I don't know why I'm wearing this plate mail."

These attempts to make D&D appear as game where everyone snuck around or talked to avoid combat are incredulous to say the least.

If you are playing OD&D and have the luxury of choosing where to put your stats, damn right putting an 18 in CHA is a smart play.
An OD&D fighter with an 18 STR gets an xp bonus and can carry more stuff- that's it. An 18 CHA, provides a good reaction bonus, allows more henchmen to be retained, and raises the loyalty of those henchmen.
 

After going through the DMG my observation this is the edition for creators, not consumers.

I am a consumer of content, I don't want to be a creator. There's a huge lack of detail that I want (and require) as a time poor DM who doesn't have the time to sit down and create my own diseases, traps, magic items, or spend hours fiddling around with the complicated monster builder/reverse engineering the monsters manual.

I love the edition more than any other, but it's put a lot of burden back into the hands of the DM's, which is both good and bad, depending on where you sit.

Yes, this.

As I was going through it, I had a nostalgic feeling for about 20 years ago, when I was DMing my long-term 2e campaign. It was a nice feeling.

But the version of me now has far less time than the 20-years-younger version of me. Instead of (or in addition to) rulings-advice, I would have liked some more hard-written rules. In the 4e DMG2, they had sidebars from creators of examples of how they ran certain rules in their games. I would have liked something like that as a compromise.

Eric
 

I thought it was pretty obvious that the tournament adventures were going to typically be much more combat-or-trap focused, since that's the part of the rules which is most consistent between groups, and least reliant on how you mesh with your GM.
 

After going through the DMG my observation this is the edition for creators, not consumers.

I am a consumer of content, I don't want to be a creator. There's a huge lack of detail that I want (and require) as a time poor DM who doesn't have the time to sit down and create my own diseases, traps, magic items, or spend hours fiddling around with the complicated monster builder/reverse engineering the monsters manual.

I love the edition more than any other, but it's put a lot of burden back into the hands of the DM's, which is both good and bad, depending on where you sit.
Agree and disagree....

This edition is easier for creators than 3e or 4e. It's less constrained by intricate, interdependent rules. It's explicitly open to interpretation. The DMG is all about owning/mastering the campaign. As an incurable tinkerer, this pleases me greatly.

This edition is simpler to consume than 3e or 4e. The rules are very basic and straightforward. Proficiency bonus consolidates a bunch of other fiddly stuff into one. The actual "Adventuring" and "Combat" chapters are only about 30 pages (IIRC, book not available), so there just aren't that many rules to remember (or forget). As the father of four, with a full-time-plus job, and upwards of 20 hours/week of other commitments, this pleases me greatly.

If there's a problem for "consumers", it's with the available options. Don't like Tiamat? Tough. Make up your own adventure. Want to run in something other than a vague, hand-wavy, implied Realms? Tough. Hope you can either make up your own setting or are good at finding and converting material for other editions -- especially since we don't have any current plans to publish anything like that. Want a plethora of adventure hooks that the PCs can follow at their whim? Tough. We killed Dungeon and don't see it coming back. This displeases me greatly, as a consumer, because I have to spend too much time on background tasks.

The same negative could be applied to "creators", as well. Want to make up your own adventures, but see some ideas for new mechanics/modules? Tough. The crunch books are tightly coupled to the adventures. Also, we killed Dragon and don't intend to bring it back. Hope you like the web.

I don't want the glut of splat book and rules bloat from 3e, or anything close. I very much do believe that the biggest weakness of 5e is the lack of a Dragon or Dungeon magazine.
 

The fact is that classical fantasy-themes like "knights in shining armor saving princesses from dragons" didn't became a part of the game until DragonLance and 2E.

The pretty famous image from the 1e PHB, "A Paladin in Hell" says otherwise.

Heck, the mere existence of paladins says otherwise. The class is intended, very clearly, to be heroes. Heroing is their job and reason for being. That puts the entrance of "knights in shining armor saving princesses" at no later than 1977. So, there's a maximum of three years where the trope wasn't present.
 

Into the Woods

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